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 Post subject: Atlas Shrugged...The Movie
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:14 am  
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As with all bits of cinema produced in our modern era not involving Kevin Costner, Atlas Shrugged is going to be a multi-parter.

The idea behind the book is fairly clever. The writing is fucking terrible. I have no idea how they're going to translate such a beast to the screen, but here's the trailer for Part 1:



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 Post subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged...The Movie
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:46 pm  
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I still need to read the book, it's sitting like 15 feet from me but now that school has started up again we're reading Latin American literature instead so I haven't gotten around to it.
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 Post subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged...The Movie
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:38 pm  
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I will see this (would like to read the book though, it's been on my list for quite awhile), but the trailer does not get me excited. It looks like a decent film based on the trailer, just nothing that gets me pumped.


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 Post subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged...The Movie
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:27 pm  
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If it fails to perform in the free market of cinema, will Ayn Rand fans acquiesce that the story isn't really that good?

Is part 2 going to be 3 hours of a John Galt monologue?


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 Post subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged...The Movie
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:24 pm  
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dek wrote:
If it fails to perform in the free market of cinema, will Ayn Rand fans acquiesce that the story isn't really that good?

Is part 2 going to be 3 hours of a John Galt monologue?


It could end up being a decent film, and some decent films aren't always blockbusters.

I was surprised to see this coming out, I've always heard The Fountainhead was her best work? I've also heard that the Bioshock games go along with some of her ideas. I don't really know a whole lot about the "objectivism" philosophy but I know people often get it confused.


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 Post subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged...The Movie
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:58 pm  
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Rathmoon wrote:
dek wrote:
If it fails to perform in the free market of cinema, will Ayn Rand fans acquiesce that the story isn't really that good?

Is part 2 going to be 3 hours of a John Galt monologue?


It could end up being a decent film, and some decent films aren't always blockbusters.

I was surprised to see this coming out, I've always heard The Fountainhead was her best work? I've also heard that the Bioshock games go along with some of her ideas. I don't really know a whole lot about the "objectivism" philosophy but I know people often get it confused.


Randian economics rejects your premise. If it is good, the market will make it successful.

Bioshock is more of a sarcastic version of her philosophy. It shows a society that followed her tenets and it led to everyone killing each other.


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 Post subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged...The Movie
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:31 pm  
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Ayn Rand has fans?

This is an honest question. I imagine it is not dissimilar from being a fan of having your eyes gouged out with rusty nails.


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 Post subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged...The Movie
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:42 pm  
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Parts of her philosophy make sense. It's probably a lot like communism, though (her philosophy was developed as an antithesis of communism, and she also endorsed atheism) and would only really work on paper. There was a lot more to it than "let the market decide," and if you think that's all she has to say on the subject you should read some of her stuff. A lot of her writing is devoted to the morals/ethics involved with being a participant in the market. The crony capitalism that we currently have is touched on heavily in Atlas Shrugged before the story turns to dealing with the aspects of socialism.

Her fucking writing is goddamn terrible. If it weren't for the premise of the book (all the people that make things work get tired of the moochers and quit), and the fact that the story is good despite her literary talents, I never could have finished it. I would hope someone would pare down the umpteen page John Galt rant for the screen. I never actually finished it, because I skipped ahead to where it appeared to end after it started repeating itself. Brevity is the soul of wit, Ayn, get with the fucking program.

But yeah, Dek, if it bombs...Ayn Rand would probably say the market decided the movie sucked ass. She was fucking contrary.

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 Post subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged...The Movie
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:43 pm  
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Yuratuhl wrote:
Ayn Rand has fans?

This is an honest question. I imagine it is not dissimilar from being a fan of having your eyes gouged out with rusty nails.


I remember a story about a post-op TS who's first order of action was to put Atlas Shrugged over her brand new crotch and say "I've always wanted to do that because Ayn Rand is a cunt".
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 Post subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged...The Movie
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:45 pm  
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Joklem wrote:
Yuratuhl wrote:
Ayn Rand has fans?

This is an honest question. I imagine it is not dissimilar from being a fan of having your eyes gouged out with rusty nails.


I remember a story about a post-op TS who's first order of action was to put Atlas Shrugged over her brand new crotch and say "I've always wanted to do that because Ayn Rand is a cunt".


That was absolutely awful and unnecessary, and I love you for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged...The Movie
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:01 pm  
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Jubbergun wrote:
Parts of her philosophy make sense. It's probably a lot like communism, though (her philosophy was developed as an antithesis of communism, and she also endorsed atheism) and would only really work on paper.



That is precisely right. It's a philosophy that exists in a vacuum and ignores so very many variables. It might inform your real world actions to a degree (like communism can as well), it is not devoid of valid ideas, but when taken as some type of divinely inspired final truth it is absurd.


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 Post subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged...The Movie
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:13 pm  
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The book fucking sucks. Good idea or not it fucking sucks. That lady couldn't write a thank you note without it being 50 pages of horse shit repeating itself. I hope the people making this have the same thought in mind and crop out a bunch of the fluff. Book has 3-4 ideas. That doesn't take 1200 pages to get across. The fact the movie is going to be in 3 parts scares me. Hopefully the director/writers aren't purists.

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 Post subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged...The Movie
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:31 pm  
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dek wrote:
Jubbergun wrote:
Parts of her philosophy make sense. It's probably a lot like communism, though (her philosophy was developed as an antithesis of communism, and she also endorsed atheism) and would only really work on paper.



That is precisely right. It's a philosophy that exists in a vacuum and ignores so very many variables. It might inform your real world actions to a degree (like communism can as well), it is not devoid of valid ideas, but when taken as some type of divinely inspired final truth it is absurd.



I don't think we're thinking it wouldn't work for the same reasons.

Part of the philosophy is that people would inherently strive to be their best because the rewards of doing so would be transparent. Another portion is that there has to be honesty in the dealings between two or more parties, but I generally got the impression that this honesty somehow magically sprang from innards of the participants, and wasn't imposed by an outside force such as government. Much like communism, that sort of thinking overlooked human nature.

When you pick it apart and choose the good bits, it does make sense. When you put limits on some of the other parts, it also makes sense. There is a role for government in the market, whether Rand believed it or not (and I'm not sure I can say with any authority that she disbelieved that), but that role needs to be well defined. Government cannot have one set of rules for one company in a certain sector and entirely different rules for another in the same sector. That's the sort of thing that distorts markets. Government's role should be strictly limited to matters of preventing fraud and ensuring the safety of the public, including the employees of the regulated companies.

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 Post subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged...The Movie
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:45 am  
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Jubbergun wrote:
dek wrote:
Jubbergun wrote:
Parts of her philosophy make sense. It's probably a lot like communism, though (her philosophy was developed as an antithesis of communism, and she also endorsed atheism) and would only really work on paper.



That is precisely right. It's a philosophy that exists in a vacuum and ignores so very many variables. It might inform your real world actions to a degree (like communism can as well), it is not devoid of valid ideas, but when taken as some type of divinely inspired final truth it is absurd.



I don't think we're thinking it wouldn't work for the same reasons.

Part of the philosophy is that people would inherently strive to be their best because the rewards of doing so would be transparent. Another portion is that there has to be honesty in the dealings between two or more parties, but I generally got the impression that this honesty somehow magically sprang from innards of the participants, and wasn't imposed by an outside force such as government. Much like communism, that sort of thinking overlooked human nature.

When you pick it apart and choose the good bits, it does make sense. When you put limits on some of the other parts, it also makes sense. There is a role for government in the market, whether Rand believed it or not (and I'm not sure I can say with any authority that she disbelieved that), but that role needs to be well defined. Government cannot have one set of rules for one company in a certain sector and entirely different rules for another in the same sector. That's the sort of thing that distorts markets. Government's role should be strictly limited to matters of preventing fraud and ensuring the safety of the public, including the employees of the regulated companies.

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Actually, I do think it mostly fails by ignoring human nature, and generally in the same way.

If the unhindered market pushes those in it to find the most efficient means of making profit, it doesn't actually lead to honest business. I might be able to sell you a better product for profit, but it is more profitable to sell you a cheaper product for profit, which generally means it isn't better. I do this through lying to you. It is even more profitable still to tell you I'm selling you something but actually defraud you entirely for profit. This is what a lot of finance firms did recently. And it is even more profitable still to not even bother defrauding you, but to simply steal your money through brute force.

It is therefore the ideal market solution to rob you. The costs to myself are simply the overhead of a weapon to wield against you, and the intangible cost of the danger involved. But the profit margins are rather good.

An unhindered market will trend more and more along the line from inferior products with more deceitful marketing, to fraud, to theft. The consumers can't do much to stop it, because they are less and less willing participants in the process, as well as the simple fact that there are enough ignorant consumers to find a way to turn a profit on even the most dishonest business plan if you're good at what you do.

That's where the law needs to come into the picture, but Randian economics views the law interfering as inherently evil. It simply takes as a matter of faith (and in this regard, I mean faith in the same sense I use it in discussions about religion, because that's what it is) that the market is a perfect machine that, if left untouched, will find a balance that is equitable and ideal. It presents no evidence for this claim, it simply says it is true.


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 Post subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged...The Movie
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:53 am  
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dek wrote:
Actually, I do think it mostly fails by ignoring human nature, and generally in the same way.

If the unhindered market pushes those in it to find the most efficient means of making profit, it doesn't actually lead to honest business. I might be able to sell you a better product for profit, but it is more profitable to sell you a cheaper product for profit, which generally means it isn't better. I do this through lying to you. It is even more profitable still to tell you I'm selling you something but actually defraud you entirely for profit. This is what a lot of finance firms did recently. And it is even more profitable still to not even bother defrauding you, but to simply steal your money through brute force.

It is therefore the ideal market solution to rob you. The costs to myself are simply the overhead of a weapon to wield against you, and the intangible cost of the danger involved. But the profit margins are rather good.

An unhindered market will trend more and more along the line from inferior products with more deceitful marketing, to fraud, to theft. The consumers can't do much to stop it, because they are less and less willing participants in the process, as well as the simple fact that there are enough ignorant consumers to find a way to turn a profit on even the most dishonest business plan if you're good at what you do.

That's where the law needs to come into the picture, but Randian economics views the law interfering as inherently evil. It simply takes as a matter of faith (and in this regard, I mean faith in the same sense I use it in discussions about religion, because that's what it is) that the market is a perfect machine that, if left untouched, will find a balance that is equitable and ideal. It presents no evidence for this claim, it simply says it is true.


I'm no expert on Randian philosophy, but the idea of theft as participation in the market seems contrary to what I have read. As I said, unless you're citing something I've not seen, I don't think you can say that Rand states that there is no place for government. If anything, I think the case can be made that the formation of governments reflects a reaction by the market to thefts and assault. Those impacted freely associated to protect one another from those that would do them violence. Rand is very clear that the market really only exists when two or more parties voluntarily contract with one another for goods and/or services. Theft doesn't reflect a voluntary act for at least one of the parties involved.

Even in the absence of government or any other regulating force, many of the problems you describe would somehow be addressed. Those who commit fraud or misrepresent their products may see a larger profit than others, but for how long will they see those profits? Are you going to continue trading with someone who takes advantage of you, or start trading with someone who has earned a reputation for doing so? If you're being preyed upon by thieves, and there is no recourse from an outside authority, wouldn't you pool resources with others who share your predicament for mutual protection of your person and assets?

The market is not a perfect machine, which is why order has to be imposed upon it, but like many things in life, less is more. Theft and fraud must be prevented in the market, and the fact that the market has few inherent qualities that actively and effectively deter those activities is a flaw. That is why rules with enforceable penalties are necessary to deter people from stealing from and/or defrauding others. The government exceeds its proper role and distorts markets when it mandates the use of one product over another without any reasonable concern for public safety (hello, Ethanol), when it forces businesses into transactions that aren't in their best interests (hello, Housing Bubble), when it props up one company but lets other similar companies fail (hello, Bear-Sterns) instead of letting them all fail, when it give waivers to one business but denies them to others (hello, Obamacare waivers), and when the government taxes or subsidizes certain behaviors to discourage/encourage them, among other things.

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