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We can use the same reasoning for validating honor killings, but I get this really weird feeling that everyone's suddenly going to do a 180 when that get thrown into the mix.

RETIRED.
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Fanta could probably say for sure, but while I am no great expert on Islam, I was under the impression that honor killings were more of a cultural than a religious practice, and were justified in post-Koranic teachings/scholarship. Even if that's not the case, there still exists the difference between purposely causing someone to die and allowing someone to die that with which you still seem to be having a great deal of difficulty coming to terms. Even with the tremendous latitude granted to religious practice/conduct under the First Amendment, there are limits to what sort of practices are allowed in the name of religion. I doubt we'd be able to find a court that would uphold the practice of virgin sacrifice, just as I doubt we'd be able to find a court that would uphold the practice of 'honor killing.'

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Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

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Does this mean you're distinguishing honor killings and allowing children to die because the latter is a religious practice? Sorta unravels your whole argument if God is literally telling parents that they can't save their kids, because the same God could be telling you to drown your kids or burn down the house of the witch down the street.


No, there's a difference, and I understand that. Withholding medical treatment that you know will save a life (and, more importantly, will kill someone if they don't get it) is purposefully causing someone to die.

If you were seizing in front of me due to a massive dose of poison and I just watch you die while holding the antidote, I'm pretty sure that's going to earn me some years in prison. If I think its a bad idea due to my religion, do I automatically get a free pass?

EDIT:

I honestly don't see how virgin sacrifice or honor killing are any less reprehensible or any less valid than refusing medical treatment (maybe virgin sacrifice is better because at least death is quick, as supposed to days/weeks/months in intense pain, wasting away in a hospital room). They're all religiously motivated and they all end up in the death of a child for some ridiculous reason. Not to mention that as Christian traditions are held up in Christian nations, Muslim traditions (honor killings) are either still legal or kept on the hush-hush in many countries in the Middle East.

RETIRED.
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"Honor killings" is a cultural thing, yes, or rather it's a specific interpretation of something that may be mentioned in Islamic teachings/Quran. Only the stupid and extreme practice them. They are not something that Islam accepts or teaches explicitly.

But isn't JW beliefs the same thing? Not arguing with you here Jubber, just wondering if there is some sort of parallel here - is JW a specific interpretation of something mentioned in the Bible/biblical teachings or is it a whole different religion?

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actually there's no way you'd be convicted for that, considering you're not a doctor and have no idea what the fuck is going on.

but who really wants to nitpick this point?

oh, everyone? ok.

I'm pretty sure at one point or another, the doctor's gonna say "oh, by the way, if you keep on refusing to treat your child, they're going to die".

I will give you points for the ignorance card though, considering people are literally throwing away their families for their invisible friend.

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I'm pretty sure he'd get something for not doing anything, but that's not the point at all. Didn't you accuse Aestu of missing a point recently?

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I'm pretty sure that if the parents tell him to fuck off, he can't legally do anything.

I wouldn't be surprised if some parents actually sued a doctor for malpractice because he saved the life of their child.

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Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing, but...



...even if I weren't, there is a difference between making a moral choice that leads to an undesirable consequence and making an immoral choice, such as murdering someone, and attempting to legitimize that immoral choice as being moral. It is a justification you can only make in most religions by ignoring the primacy of edicts such as "thou shalt not kill." While I do recognize that there are exceptions to those edicts, those are exceptions are arguably open to personal discretion, and I see nothing wrong with a law that has the expectation that such discretion be exercised in favor of the edict and not the exception.



You obviously don't understand the difference if you're going to continue to insist there isn't one.



I don't know...are you a Jehovah's Witness, and if so, is the antidote made from the flesh/blood of another human being?

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

I looked it up... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_ ... ansfusions ...that seems to explain it. If you read the related Biblical text, it looks like the literal Biblical interpretation does prohibit the ingestion of blood, and doesn't seem to relate to cannibalism in the way I originally thought, but neither does it seem that different.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

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Honor killings are not unique to Islam. There is something in the human character which drives a Freudian sense of "honor".

I don't think the belief and practice are something we can judge or fully understand unless we really understand how the belief and practice fits into the culture as a whole.

I'm not saying I approve. I'm merely saying I don't pretend to understand, and anyone who does is both ignorant and arrogant.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

not gonna lie, after seeing "honor killings" and "divorce italian style" while skimming, I chuckled quite hard.

They are bad people. It doesn't matter what they think they are, it's a goddamn fact that they're terrible people. Religion is too often used to justify being inexcusably wrong. It is not great, not by any definition, that anyone believes in anything that strongly. I can't pretend to understand how these people think, but I have no difficulty recognizing that the way they think is idiotic, counterproductive, and archaic. If anything, it's worse that they aren't frauds. They actually believe nonsense and it's causing death. Fuck everything about them.

I'll admit straight up that I am 100% comfortable with legislating religion into oblivion. The sooner god dies in the collective minds of the people, the better.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

amen

Some of the greatest evils in all of human history have been perpetrated by religious men. Others by atheists.

Some of the greatest goods in all of human history have been perpetrated by religious men. Others by atheists.

The only constant here is humanity.