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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:16 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Azelma wrote:
Wow. Just wow. So the solution you propose is "let depressed / suicidal people kill themselves" No wonder you think trying to help people through talk therapy / family therapy / etc. is pointless. If you're sad and can't be easily convinced to go on living? Aestu says "Just kill yourself." Nothing else can be said. You have a sad, sad view of the world and people in it. Very sad.


The other half of what I said was so unthinkable for you that it went in one side of your head and out the other without striking anything in between. Go back and read it again.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:31 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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Azelma wrote:
Wow. Just wow. So the solution you propose is "let depressed / suicidal people kill themselves"

No wonder you think trying to help people through talk therapy / family therapy / etc. is pointless. If you're sad and can't be easily convinced to go on living? Aestu says "Just kill yourself."



Nothing else can be said. You have a sad, sad view of the world and people in it. Very sad.



STRAWMAN SO HARD MOTHAFUCKAZ WANNA FINE ME


Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming
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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:39 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu wrote:
Give them a reason to live. If that's not good enough, allow them the means to commit suicide in a safe and painless manner.



I read it again...you say "give them a reason to live"- then "if it's not good enough, allow them the means to commit suicide."

To me that sounds like "if you can't easily change their perceptions, let them off themselves"


But okay, let's focus on the "give them a reason to live" part....


How exactly do you do that?

Do you address their problems head on? If they have issues with family members, do you encourage them to talk about it? If they have girl issues making them super depressed....what do you do about it?

How exactly do you give someone who sees no reason to live incentive to go on living? How do you help them with the source of their depression? What do you say?


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:47 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Battletard wrote:
Azelma wrote:
Wow. Just wow. So the solution you propose is "let depressed / suicidal people kill themselves"

No wonder you think trying to help people through talk therapy / family therapy / etc. is pointless. If you're sad and can't be easily convinced to go on living? Aestu says "Just kill yourself."



Nothing else can be said. You have a sad, sad view of the world and people in it. Very sad.



STRAWMAN SO HARD MOTHAFUCKAZ WANNA FINE ME



Since you're in this convo too, what do you think?

Do you agree with Aestu that talk therapy...I mean talking about your feelings and thoughts, working on your interpersonal relationships, working on your relationships with your parents (and having them work on things in turn)...do you think couples therapy and working on what is depressing you about your relationships...etc.... do you think that's all a fool's game and mere pseudoscience?

If so, how do you propose to change someone's perceptions? How to you try to convince someone not to commit suicide?

When do you decide "okay, this person cannot be convinced that their life has worth and they should go on living...now I will help them commit suicide"? Is there a line?


Azelma

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Last edited by Azelma on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:48 pm  
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Old Conservative Faggot
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 12:19 am
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I just checked a buttload of maps, and there seems to be a 50/50 split concerning whether Azerbaijan is in Asia or not. What really makes me scratch my head is that an area on the western edge of the continent is referred to as "central."

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AKA "ROFeraL"

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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:02 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Azelma wrote:
How exactly do you do that?

Do you address their problems head on? If they have issues with family members, do you encourage them to talk about it? If they have girl issues making them super depressed....what do you do about it? How exactly do you give someone who sees no reason to live incentive to go on living? How do you help them with the source of their depression? What do you say? Do you agree with Aestu that talk therapy...I mean talking about your feelings and thoughts, working on your interpersonal relationships, working on your relationships with your parents (and having them work on things in turn)...do you think couples therapy and working on what is depressing you about your relationships...etc.... do you think that's all a fool's game and mere pseudoscience?
If so, how do you propose to change someone's perceptions? How to you try to convince someone not to commit suicide?

When do you decide "okay, this person cannot be convinced that their life has worth and they should go on living...now I will help them commit suicide"? Is there a line?


There is no difference between "talk therapy" and talking to a priest or rabbi.

Your questions prove my point which is that shrinkology takes the status quo as an absolute and defends it on a culture-centric basis. If one discards that premise then your questions vacillate and so does shrinkology.

The entire problem is that shrinkology can't provide a convincing reason for people to live other than the American pseudophilosophy of blind optimism.

This optimism is the entire premise of shrinkology, that life is inherently worth living no matter what. It's a contention way, way far out of the realm of anything scientific. It's a religious belief, one inherited from Judaism, that has gradually become fundamental to secular Western culture, and the new faith of shrinkology is heir to that religious belief.

Somehow I think if people had less anxiety and more personal freedom and life security, they would feel less pessimistic about life. Somehow I think if people had the freedom to travel freely, partake in social and recreational activities, and were respected as individuals and not as economic actors, more people would find their lives worthwhile.

And if they don't, then you can't tell them they're wrong without violating their freedom. What do you think gives you or anyone else the right to decide if someone is properly happy or not?

Priests, rabbis and other religious people have been dealing with these same dilemmas since the beginning of time, and they always solve them in the same ways - with chemicals and social pressure. Why do you think that that alcohol plays such a central role in so many faiths? Religions always try to monopolize the power of chemical substances to consolidate their hold on society. Shrinkology is just another pseudoreligion, like Scientology or Sophistry.

Jubbergun wrote:
I just checked a buttload of maps, and there seems to be a 50/50 split concerning whether Azerbaijan is in Asia or not. What really makes me scratch my head is that an area on the western edge of the continent is referred to as "central."


Topography. As proven by migrations.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:21 pm  
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French Faggot
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:15 pm
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Did we seriously let Jubber say that Azerbaijan borders Albania and not call him on it?

Also, Azerbaijan is in Asia. That's not even a question.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:25 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:19 pm
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I'm pretty sure he meant Central Asia, not Asia, and Armenia, not Albania. It's all the same really, third-world countries inhabited by white people.

This is a pretty good case study in Jubber viewing reality the only way he knows how, based on right-wing media supplemented by selective Googling and Wikipedia. It comes up short against a holistic understanding.

One need not waste several years on a college campus, but it is necessary to at least...go read some books...so that one gains that general knowledge.

And yes I think React's idea of legal suicide - with a waiting period - is a good one.

Also: Play Civ3 and SMAC. They WILL change you.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:51 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:26 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 3:33 pm
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Azelma wrote:
Battletard wrote:
Azelma wrote:
Wow. Just wow. So the solution you propose is "let depressed / suicidal people kill themselves"

No wonder you think trying to help people through talk therapy / family therapy / etc. is pointless. If you're sad and can't be easily convinced to go on living? Aestu says "Just kill yourself."



Nothing else can be said. You have a sad, sad view of the world and people in it. Very sad.



STRAWMAN SO HARD MOTHAFUCKAZ WANNA FINE ME



Since you're in this convo too, what do you think?

Do you agree with Aestu that talk therapy...I mean talking about your feelings and thoughts, working on your interpersonal relationships, working on your relationships with your parents (and having them work on things in turn)...do you think couples therapy and working on what is depressing you about your relationships...etc.... do you think that's all a fool's game and mere pseudoscience?

If so, how do you propose to change someone's perceptions? How to you try to convince someone not to commit suicide?

When do you decide "okay, this person cannot be convinced that their life has worth and they should go on living...now I will help them commit suicide"? Is there a line?



Battletard wrote:
Misery loves company. If assisted suicide were made accessible (within reason) to the mentally ill (myself included, though I wouldn't ever utilize it out of principle) the world might see a net gain in happiness among it's inhabitants.

It sounds harsh, sure. It wouldn't happen overnight, either. Suicide is devastating to people it leaves behind, but eventually, people do move on. People do pull themselves together. Maybe the interconnectedness of the world contributes to our unhappiness, and we need a more primal, back to basics approach to the way we live our lives.


I think there should be a minimum requirement of time to be in treatment before the service becomes accessible. If cancer is terminal, it should be accessible as well. Terminal unhappiness is no different.

If it's fair to call the act of suicide 'selfish' due to the misery and pain it brings to the loved ones afterwards, is it also fair to call it 'selfish' to insist someone endure unhappiness without end? It's contradictory to human nature to allow people to kill themselves, we're all just highly developed nomads in disguise. When one person goes, the community suffers a loss. That's human nature.

However, the mentally ill do not experience life through the same eyes as everyone else. If someone truly cannot be happy, if people are truly so far gone that they cannot be brought back from the brink of despair without resorting to force, they should have the option in my opinion.


Brawlsack

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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:58 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 3:18 pm
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Therapy is like rehab.

If the person in question doesn't want to get better, they won't.


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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:13 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I just want to point out, at least we're not arguing about American politics.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:22 pm  
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Feckless Fool
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:57 am
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Usdk wrote:
Therapy is like rehab.

If the person in question doesn't want to get better, they won't.


i can testify to this.
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 Post subject: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:39 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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Usdk wrote:
Therapy is like rehab.

If the person in question doesn't want to get better, they won't.


Fair enough, but this at least eliminates snap decision making from the equation as far as assisted suicide goes.


Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming
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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:41 pm  
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Blathering Buffoon
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:00 am
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and of course now my facebook is filled with the most ridiculous shit i've ever read.

Quote:
A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.
Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.
Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!
The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.
With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!
If you value your freedom, please spread this antigun-control message to all of your friends.
SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.
SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!
IT'S A NO BRAINER!
DON'T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET.
Spread the word everywhere you can that you are a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment!

It's time to speak loud before they try to silence and disarm us.
You're not imagining it, history shows that governments always manipulate tragedies to attempt to disarm the people~


s^ | Kay
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 Post subject: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:48 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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My favorite is the one that suggests Obama used the CIA to shoot up the school to make gun legislation easier to pass.


Brawlsack

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