Bucket Guild | FUBU BH Forums

I'm not asking you to prove anything. speculate.

do you THINK that israel would do turn its back on a valuable ally in the middle east for no reason?

Reasons aren't always rational.

I think they do this for the reason they do a lot of things, which is a fear of showing weakness, or feeling a need to be able to action issues, even if the actions they take are unnecessary or inappropriate - an intense fear of being perceived as without recourse.

Does it really advance their cause to blow up some random target "in retaliation" for a terrorist attack? Are terrorists really going to be dissuaded from blowing stuff up for fear of the Israelis blowing someone else up? Does blowing some random Palestinian target up convince any other given Palestinian he should do what the Israelis want?

Does antagonizing or insulting the Turks convince them to do what they've been doing for a very long time, which is be supportive allies? Or would the Israeli cause have been better served by crucifying Ayalon and doing a full mea culpa for this and other slights, and winning their ally back?

Conversely, what response could they have if they did not do these things?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8687030.stm

"No-one who is really in the know about Israel's specific intentions and plans will talk about them.

But Daniel Kurtzer, a former US ambassador to Israel, is a veteran - not just of diplomacy, but of this type of war-game simulations.

He said that, time and again, a marked difference of emphasis would emerge from the role-playing, with the Israelis favouring military action as a "first course of response", and the US tending to look at alternatives."

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

@ Aestu

You said isreal has no credibility, which is to me incredibly laughable. Isreal falsifies records/evidence? A sweeping generalization like that is ridiculous, although i dont deny that some things are obviously swept under the floor, in the way you describe it, you make it seem as if they are the big-bad bullies and palestinians are the innocents, who never lie or dirty deal themselves. No, im not saying isreal is perfect, just that the notion you put forward is absolutely ridiculous.

For example, i watched a movie that was sponsored by the BBC about isreal bulldozing a border town in gaza. The video was made by palestinians with BBC funding. In the video they say things like "My mother was walking in the street (insert little girl crying) and then the isrealies randomly walked up to her, beat her, and ran a tank overtop of her for sport." They also put forward many other claims, like 200+ people were killed without reason in the village, houses bulldozed with people inside of them, etc. It was later proved that EVERYTHING in that video was an outright lie, only one person in that town was hurt because he attacked a soldier, all of the interviewed never lived in the village, and some were in fact the producers of the film. Yet BBC continued to promote this video, while sweeping the truth under the video.

My point being, you cant beleive everything in the news, especially since now most of it is blatantly anti-isreal. The last few issues ive read about/listened to have made me facepalm because of the dicition they use for both sides varies so greatly, once again casting isreal as the big bad opressor, while the palestinians are children who had been minding their own buisiness.

I am THE man.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee15 ... 171424.jpg

Palestine was under a british mandate. in 1917 the balfour declaration promised the creation of a jewish state there. The partition plan was made to appease the palestinians, because until then a singularly jewish state was going to be the most likely outcome. the Yishuv accepted the compromise, while the arabs/palestinians refused it. The partition recognized in part that the palestinians were no longer the clear majority in the region, they still outnumbered isreali's but it wasnt like the 1000:1 ratio of old. On news of the plan would be voted on (before it was accepted/voted on) many palestinian irregulars took to fighting isreali's unprovoked. So its not exactly like they were just pushed off to the side.

Nobody suggested uprooting the palestinians, most voluntarily left during the 48 war to avoid the bloodshed, or after a palestinian village was mistakenly ransacked by the IDF. The news of this was turned into propaganda "OMG ISREAL IS COMING TO KILL YOU" type-deal was turned on, and most of the palestinians who were at the time illeterate farmers, believed it out-right and left. After the war, the leaders of the other arab countries kept the refugee's in camps to be used as political leverage. This was the basic start of the gaza strip/west bank situation we have today.

No, im not saying isreal is perfect, i agree that both sides have their own wrongs and their own rights to deal with, but i find it necesarry to provide an alternate view/facts to back up the isreali side of the argument.

I am THE man.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee15 ... 171424.jpg

Go read "By Way of Deception", which was written by a former member of the Israeli secret service. He relates firsthand how they work in the American drug trade to fund their operations, and how they deceive and ruthlessly use civilians not party to the conflict to advance their aims.

Also consider that they falsified several passports of Western nations they are allies with. They have also spied on us routinely for decades:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/27/fbi.spy/index.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 673579.ece

Is this group anti-Semitic? Or are they just calling it like it seems to be?
http://cpj.org/2010/06/cpj-denounces-is ... in-flo.php

In the face of all that, how can you say they're impartial or credible?



Link the video - and the proof that it isn't real.



Why is it anti-Israel, though?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Palestinians still outnumbered the Israelis until the post-war period, and to this day Palestinians have a much higher population density than the Israelis.

There was no "vote". That you actually believe there was proves the profundity of your ignorance about the history of the region.

The Balfour Declaration was a unilateral declaration by the British at a time when their Middle Eastern policy was in flux - and they were at war with the Ottoman Empire, which became Turkey. Go read, "A Peace To End All Peace", about the decisions made during WWI that created this mess.

As to the fighting at the time, substantiate that - link evidence. Why would the Palestinians do that given that they'd lived with these people for millenia?

What right did the British have to carve up this land, anyway?



So why are these refugee camps now permanent arrangements? Where did all those people come from?

Who says they moved voluntarily? If they did then why do they want the land back?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/settlers-up ... e-1.143432
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... ons-1.3488

From Israel's OWN STATE NEWSPAPER they admit that land was seized and people's farms torn up to make way for settlers.

Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir, in her own autobiography, said that these people who she herself acknowledges were displaced, should have been settled by the other Arab nations - yet wasn't it Israel who displaced them in the first place?

So how can you deny that these people were forcibly moved?



Let's see them. Because all you seem to have here are your own biases and the propaganda you are fed.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I don't follow the news at all other than random stuff I read on the internet since all major news outlets are sensationalist, sell misery, fear mongering, jam fucking packed with "experts" giving their "expert" opinion, almost completely void of objective truth, and I honestly just don't really give much of a shit about some earthquake in China beyond some topic to make some small talk about.

But I've heard quite a bit about that flotilla (never heard that word before in my life then heard it like 300000 times) and I still have no fucking clue what ACTUALLY happened.

Why does everyone answer questions with questions? I feel trolled reading half of these threads here.

Druid: Meowth
« Steam »« Xfire »
Glorious Death Metal Music

Because it's an effective way of revealing differences in perception, or what someone doesn't know, or the contradictions inherent in their beliefs.

Once revealed, all that can be fixed - you can show someone something they don't know, or you can correct their contradictions with internally consistent reasoning.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Lol, aestu you are definetly the best entertainment ive had all week. Firstly responding to your call for facts, bring up your own then, for everything you say that is not true, bring up a fact from an unbiased source, unilaterally agreed on by all sides, that is true. Fact is, that cant be found because of the bitching that goes on to both sides.

Now for some clarification-type things: Never said balfour declaration was a vote, and if you say they had no right, no they didnt, but then you can use that argument for so many things. All imperaliasm throughout the century, dividing up of africa, austria/germany in WW1, etc. At the time, it was their right, despite that the notions of today may disagree with that.

Population density=/= population.

are you fucking kidding me? lived peacefully for millennia? you sir have a completely distorted view. Heard of the the 1929 general strike? The others and riots that took place prior to isreali independence? The arabs where by no means peaceful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni
Yes i know wikipedia, not everything is absolute true, but most of it is, whic you cannot deny. If you are genuinely interested in understanding the root causes of the conflict and much of the historical background read the book (not bible book) Exodus. Yes i know, its blatantly biased towards the jews, but it contains undeniable historical facts and citations for those depending on what issue you manage to find. Its also a great read.

Permanent arrangements because nobody is going to get off their ass to get them some place to live instead of siphoning off aid money, because theyre still a good political tool, they dont want to drop the ridiculous notion that they will get their land back. ridiculous not because they dont have a right (which is arguable) but because it just isnt going to happen anytime soon.

Voluntarily as in scared shitless because their leaders at the time were even more dictatorial manipulative maniacs, and the people themselves where ignorant completely. they were scared because one event was taken out of proportion, and decided to leave in case they would have the same fate.

Some where forcibly moved, esp for the settlements in west bank/gaza but most of that is more recent, i was reffering to the exodus (no joke intended) of the palestinians from isreal after their victory in the 48 war, or are you gonna dispute that they won too?

i lol@ your statement of my own bias, i sure hope you have a mirror.

Like i said, never said they were completely innocent, just not as bad as they are often made out to be, and that the paletinians, who are "governed" by a terrorist organization are generally less credible. As for spying...doesnt the US spy on EVERYONE? even their own citizens? so why just condemn isreal for this? i feel you are using your own spin to further your arguments.

The video/what proved it wrong i cannot link, because the class i took that showed it to me ended years ago, and the name of the movie eludes me. Im somehow unsure that the public school system would lie to us/use false material.

as for bias, listen to any news report about isreal from BBC or something like that, just listen to the words they use when describing isreal, and when they describe palestinians. Its appaling. Its partly due to that there is little to no jewish presence in britain, while the muslim presence is massive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNioBaWhFUw


And i cant help but laugh at turkey. Principally you saying how they endorse all these anti racist bills, etc, yet they cannot recognize the fact that they commited their own genocide almost 100 years ago, and teach their own children outright lies about it. Also as to them being a secular nation, ya fucking right. You even said the turkish government of "conservative muslims" in one of your posts, need i say more?

I am THE man.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee15 ... 171424.jpg

I was raised in a reform Jewish household. My mentor was a German Jewish refugee and I spent a good two years getting paid to study the German Jews and their history. My ancestors were Russo-German Jews. Why would I be biased?

What exactly is your position on the issue, Quadtard? If Israel isn't any more in the right, if there's no arguing that they use terror and deceit to advance their cause, and the agreements that gave them the land weren't fair, then why should the Israelis have more of a right to it, why should we support them against the people whom even you admit were wronged?

All the examples of violence against Jews that you allege, took place AFTER the Balfour Declaration. If Palestinians are fundamentally hostile to Jews then why was there not such violence between the time of the Diaspora and the 20th century? If this fighting started after Zionism got started, then doesn't that suggest that it was the Zionist movement that caused the violence?

The genocide perpetrated by the Turks was against the Armenians. They have always been very hospitable to Jewish people; why would we believe they are inherently hostile to Jews because of their acts against the Armenians? Turkey is secular. It's more secular than Israel, in fact. Israel subsidizes the ultra-orthodox Jews with exemption from universal military service, and Israeli life is run according to conservative Jewish laws - no business on Shabbat. How can you say Turkey isn't secular? Above all else, if they were so hostile to Jews, why were they their allies for decades until they were insulted? Clearly, it wasn't anti-Semitism that changed their mind, it was that the Israelis were in the WRONG.

What makes you say the BBC is anti-Semitic? One of England's greatest prime ministers - Benjamin Disraeli - was Jewish. Good luck EVER getting a Muslim PM. They have profound racist violence against Muslims but not Jews. Why would they slant an article in favor of those people? What makes you say it's slanted at all?

But as far as bias goes, Quadtard, look at it this way - you are an American Jew. How many people at your local synagogue come out against Israel? How many in favor? What's the distribution of opinion in the general population that isn't anti-Semitic? If such an overwhelming percentage of these people are in favor, doesn't that suggest bias?

In response to your initial post I debunked many of your facts and arguments - but you still believe what you do nonetheless! If the facts supporting your position were revealed to be in large part false, yet you believe what you do anyway and grasp for rationalizations that "the other side is no better", then doesn't that prove bias on your end?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I find your assertion that i am an american jew insulting, because i am in fact a canadian athiest. And im happy to say i havent been to the local temple in years.

As for the violence, that is mainly because up at that point there was not enough jews there for them to become an issue. After that time, during one of the many aliyah's, the population increased greatly. Violence only started after the land which the jews legally bought, which at the time was mostly rocky hills/swampy marshland, started to bear fruit, earning the jealousy of the arab landowners who had thought they sold useless land to a bunch of crazies. That in short is the start of the violence between the palestinians and early jewish settlers.

I question how you could trust/beleive a nation that refuses to recognize their own genocidal/racist past (not saying they are still) can be trusted to uphold the principles you put to them. I also question the possibility of a secular state existing when close to 100% of the population are of the same religion, from my point of view a secular state in this scenario is a falsity, or will be riddled with religious politics.

You may feel that you debunked mine and i feel that the feeling is mutual.

As for media bias i ask you one question, and give one example.
Which countries in the middle east have access to oil, and what are their stances on isreal?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis
I dont think i need to explain what i'm implying.

And its not a rationalization if its true. When all is said and done, isreal does not aim rockets at primary kids, and when they do bomb something, they do so with great care and precision, dropping pamphlets to warn residents.

I am THE man.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee15 ... 171424.jpg

Why do you feel trolled?

He was touched as a little boy. In places.

I am THE man.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee15 ... 171424.jpg

Go read, Saddam's Secrets: How an Iraqi General Defied And Survived Saddam Hussein by Georges Sada, a high ranking officer in the Iraqi Air Force under Saddam's reign. In that book, he explains how Saddam had weapons of mass destruction which were moved to Syria. He also details how Saddam wanted to destroy Israel and how Saddam used WMDs against his own people.

Now, I know you won't believe that for a minute because you're so stuck in what you think you know... but, someone wrote a book and said these things in the book - is just has to be true, right?