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Killing other people for being a nuisance...

...I find that an oddly appealing idea.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Gah you're not reading what I'm writing. I'M not murdering anyone. I'm saying because of all those pro-choice reasons...if other people want to have the option to murder babies (which they will do anyway if it is illegal...yet it will be much less sanitary and safe), then they should have that option.




My position - I'm pro-choice, meaning women should have the CHOICE of killing their unborn babies if they wish (for all those blah blah reasons, economy, society, rape, incest. Some of them are more cynical than others), although I would never personally do it or want anyone I know or care about to do it, because I believe aborting a baby is taking a human life, and that is wrong morally.

Your misrepresentation of my position - I believe abortion is taking a life, but I'm pro-choice because we don't need a bunch of dregs on society living off the government and causing crime. Therefore, I also must believe that we should kill old people because they don't contribute to society.





By both your definition and the official Wikipedia definition, you are using a straw man argument (adding that I should logically think we should kill old people) to refute my stance on abortion. This is not what we are discussing. Since there is no debate as to whether or not an old person is indeed a human (whereas there is considerable debate about a fetus in this regard), this is an unequivalent supposition.


Your move.

You are supporting and justifying murdering what by your own definition is a human.



People are going to murder, steal, rape, cheat, etc, etc so why not just abolish every law we have?

Dvergar /
Quisling

At what point do you think it should become illegal for people to kill their children?

Laelia Komi Anomalocaris

I underlined the point I think he's defined as his cut-off. Unfortunately (assuming the abortion is by conveinence and not as the result of some medical need), this would include a 39-week fetus.

Since abortion and the "is the fetus a human life?" is such a controversial issue, which no one can determine for a fact (which is why Roe V Wade still stands)...it is legal. Killing babies once they are born (outside of the womb) should obviously remain illegal.

Here. Allow me to break it down for everyone so they can understand how I feel about the issue.

Unborn Baby

The Law: Abortion is okay because we cannot confirm exactly at what point after conception and before birth the fetus is a human life, or if it is a human life at the moment of conception.

Azelma's Rational Side: Well, the law says it's okay, and there are loads of instances where I guess legalized abortion is the best option available from a set of awful options....so I guess pro-choice is the best option.

Azelma's Moral Code: I cannot personally confirm or deny if a fetus is a human life as soon as sperm meets egg. As a person who is empathetic and values human life, I don't like abortion and would personally never want to be the cause of one. A very large part of me thinks it might be murder.

A Born Baby, Infant, Toddler, Child, Man, Woman, Old Man, Old Woman

The Law: You kill it, it's murder. It's a human you are killing

Azelma's rational side: Yep, it's a human, killing it is murder

Azelma's Moral Code: Yep, murder.


Get it??

My moral code and rational side begin to come into significant conflict in late term abortions. I'm not sure of the laws, but I know in many instances it is possible to pass a point where it's "too late" to have the child aborted. I agree with this.

Partial birth abortions are extremely fucked up.





Edit side note: I actually like this conversation because I've never had to evaluate exactly how I feel about abortion in such detail before haha. You guys might think it's crazy, but the way I feel about the whole issue makes a shit ton of sense to me.

I'm just playing devil's advocate. I am largely in the same boat, I am pro-choice but would vehemently oppose anyone I know getting an abortion.

Dvergar /
Quisling

Why not? If you think this is a moral question rather than a scientific question, you should be able to answer this with a bit of reflection. If you think that killing unborn babies is not as bad as killing babies after that point, the only reasonable moral explanation is that you don't actually think they are equally human.

Laelia Komi Anomalocaris

I don't like abortions. I think they're wrong and, despite what some people say, they can be used as a post-conception birth control.

If I'm trying to define life, I think it starts at conception. (Just because a child at that early stage is a parasite doesn't mean it's not alive in my book.) If the world asked me to pick a cut-off for abortions (except in the rare cases where it's going to be a life-threatening delivery or its a child from incest) I think I'd be most comfortable saying babies can't be aborted if a heart beat is detected with an ultra-sound. (I think that's somewhere between the 6-8 week range.) That's not saying I support abortions in any way, just if I had to draw a line in the sand, that's where it'd be.

Honestly, I used to not care too much either way but after seeing my sons heart beat when we went in for our first appointment... I just have a have a hard time knowing people would willingly destroy something that turned out to be the greatest and most beautiful thing in my life. Then again, who am I to say.

Is it murder to use a condom them?

Both prevent birth...

In my eyes, no. Condoms prevent conception - they don't terminate growth after conception.

I think it's both.

Scientifically, I cannot confirm or deny it, which informs my legal, voting, viewpoint of it. This is the rational side of things.

Morally, I have a pretty strong conviction that it is wrong...wrong enough for me to never ever want to take part in such a procedure, or watch any of my loved ones do the same. Unfortunately though, because there is no hard scientific evidence to back my moral convictions (I couldn't prove to you with 100% certainty that as soon as sperm meets egg it's a human), I cannot support forcing everyone to adhere to my moral code.

It's riding the fence, I know, and like being Agnostic, some may call it a "cop-out." However, I feel that it is the only way to balance the rationality and emotion. I don't have a child yet, but I know myself. I know that I will have very similar thoughts to Eturnal if/when I see my own child's heart beating for the first time.

How anyone could abort a child is beyond me - but that's a feeling/conviction. Unfortunately, that's not a strong enough basis for law.

Abstinence is murder.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

Very interesting. I have a question though - suppose it turned out that you and your wife weren't ready for a baby, decided on an abortion and a couple years later gave birth to a baby boy.. wouldn't this baby boy be the greatest and most beautiful thing in your life? Just wondering, because it's not like you absolutely wouldn't be able to have a baby later.

I also do not mean to demean you, your wife or your son in any way by asking this question. I am just asking. Feel free to ignore.

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