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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:26 pm  
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quadtard wrote:
As for the violence, that is mainly because up at that point there was not enough jews there for them to become an issue. After that time, during one of the many aliyah's, the population increased greatly. Violence only started after the land which the jews legally bought, which at the time was mostly rocky hills/swampy marshland, started to bear fruit, earning the jealousy of the arab landowners who had thought they sold useless land to a bunch of crazies. That in short is the start of the violence between the palestinians and early jewish settlers.


Substantiate this.

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I question how you could trust/beleive a nation that refuses to recognize their own genocidal/racist past (not saying they are still) can be trusted to uphold the principles you put to them. I also question the possibility of a secular state existing when close to 100% of the population are of the same religion, from my point of view a secular state in this scenario is a falsity, or will be riddled with religious politics.


How is that relevant? Why should we not believe they broke up with Israel because they were insulted, because they killed Armenian people a century ago? Even if they are lying about that to this day, how is that relevant in connection with a country they haven't had a historical quarrel with?

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As for media bias i ask you one question, and give one example.
Which countries in the middle east have access to oil, and what are their stances on isreal?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis
I dont think i need to explain what i'm implying.


What are you trying to imply?

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And its not a rationalization if its true. When all is said and done, isreal does not aim rockets at primary kids, and when they do bomb something, they do so with great care and precision, dropping pamphlets to warn residents.


Many thousands of Palestinian civilians have died for each Israeli that has died, so clearly this is not the case.

But let me ask you this, straight up: What is your position on the issue? What should be done by Israel, or the United States, and what would a fair settlement look like?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:27 pm  
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Aestu wrote:
Go read "By Way of Deception", which was written by a former member of the Israeli secret service. He relates firsthand how they work in the American drug trade to fund their operations, and how they deceive and ruthlessly use civilians not party to the conflict to advance their aims.
Go read, Saddam's Secrets: How an Iraqi General Defied And Survived Saddam Hussein by Georges Sada, a high ranking officer in the Iraqi Air Force under Saddam's reign. In that book, he explains how Saddam had weapons of mass destruction which were moved to Syria. He also details how Saddam wanted to destroy Israel and how Saddam used WMDs against his own people.

Now, I know you won't believe that for a minute because you're so stuck in what you think you know... but, someone wrote a book and said these things in the book - is just has to be true, right?


How is that relevant though? How does Saddam's desire to destroy Israel bear on the here and now, about the fate of the Palestinians?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:35 pm  
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My position is that the situation is fucked up, that no solution currently exists that is viable, but by in large i am pro isreal, i feel that in most conflicts, they have acted in self defense, reactively or proactively.

Yes, i dont say no palestinians have been killed in bombings, its just the different ways in which both sides go about their bombings.

Hamas/palestinians: O look, we have rockets, there are isreali's over there, lets shoot them off randomly and dont care if we hit a truckload of schoolkids or not.

Isreal: Ok, we think X is here, but we could hit X if we bomb it. Is it worth it?

Point being, isreal doesnt look for a school to bomb randomly.

as for what im implying. The west wants oil. The middle east has oil. Those who have oil are mostly muslim and anti isreal/pro palestinian. If the west wants oil, they gotta kiss ass or else get another 1973.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:46 pm  
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So if the situation is fucked up and it's shades of grey, then why support that one side? How do you say the Israelis are in a morally superior position given they've killed more civilians and continue to take the Palestinians' land? What is your metric here?

There's no denying that the Arabs have oil and are opposed to Israel - but why? Why would they risk all that money for this political position? Why are they opposed?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:56 pm  
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Direct their own peoples attention away from the problems at hand: Opression in their home countries.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:37 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
Eturnalshift wrote:
Aestu wrote:
Go read "By Way of Deception", which was written by a former member of the Israeli secret service. He relates firsthand how they work in the American drug trade to fund their operations, and how they deceive and ruthlessly use civilians not party to the conflict to advance their aims.
Go read, Saddam's Secrets: How an Iraqi General Defied And Survived Saddam Hussein by Georges Sada, a high ranking officer in the Iraqi Air Force under Saddam's reign. In that book, he explains how Saddam had weapons of mass destruction which were moved to Syria. He also details how Saddam wanted to destroy Israel and how Saddam used WMDs against his own people.

Now, I know you won't believe that for a minute because you're so stuck in what you think you know... but, someone wrote a book and said these things in the book - is just has to be true, right?


How is that relevant though? How does Saddam's desire to destroy Israel bear on the here and now, about the fate of the Palestinians?
Relevance? There isn't any. I'm simply saying that just because someone who has been in the inter-workings of a system writes a book about that system, doesn't mean the contents of that writing are factual. Let me ask you this - Do you think Saddam had WMDs in Iraq prior to our invasion in 2003?

Also, I find it funny that you, someone who screams about bias, are quick to pull someones book who may, or may not, have a blighted work history with Israel. For all you know, he could just be some bitter man writing an expose to make a few bucks. And I thought his sequel he mentioned exaggerating a couple facts in the first book you suggest we read. Clearly a credible author...?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:40 pm  
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So aestu, how would you solve this problem?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:50 pm  
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I'd just send them all bucketloads of porn.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:06 pm  
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Spacehunter wrote:
I'd just send them all bucketloads of porn.


i wanted to post the clip from south park about mr garrison talking about why the muslims were upset. couldnt find it =(.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:15 pm  
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Let me ask you this - Do you think Saddam had WMDs in Iraq prior to our invasion in 2003?


I was very surprised when the invaders did not find any. Prior to the invasion, I believed that Saddam had WMDs. There is no question he had them prior to the Gulf War.

What are you getting at?

Usdk wrote:
So aestu, how would you solve this problem?


America:
-Cut Israel loose; stop giving them foreign aid in any form
-Force the other two parties to play fair

EU:
-Issue edict to the effect that the Arab world, the Turks, and the Israelis will be party to the positive benefits of whatever legislation and international agreements are signed into law by their national and international governments only under the condition of a final settlement. This would include MFN status, immunity to tariffs, protection of EU law, and free travel. It is all or nothing, and all together or not at all.

Israel:
-Unilaterally impose an equitable settlement, at the cost of the extremist elements of Israeli society, along the lines of what I described earlier in the thread

Palestinians:
-Accept Israel's right to exist and forswear violence so long as the terms of the treaty are adhered to
-cede Israel the right to extradite criminals and terrorists by force provided they have been found guilty by an international court


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:24 pm  
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quadtard wrote:
Direct their own peoples attention away from the problems at hand: Opression in their home countries.


That's certainly true at a national level. I would even go so far as to say that nothing would be as totally destructive to world peace as a fair and permanent settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians - not only would it cause every Arab government to fall within a decade, it would also cause serious problems should Israel lose pariah status and attempt to join the EU.

But that doesn't explain why individual Arabs, who have no love for either their governments or Islamic fundamentalists, still think that Israel is in the wrong.

There was a really good segment of "Saddam's Bombmaker", a book about a nuclear scientist in the employ of the late dictator. At his behest, he meets with a representative from the PLO, and after refusing to work with him several times, he wrote,

"Finally, I decided to gamble with the truth. 'Like any good Arab, I support the cause of Palestinian liberation. I believe it is just. However, what I see is that you, the PLO, have no real strategy. You talk like you are fighting on all fronts, on all levels, with the entire world behind you,' [the author] said, gesticulating with both hands. 'But really, you mostly just kill women and children.' I looked at the PLO man. He stared back. I had no idea what he would do. This was a man who could have me killed. Finally, he simply shrugged and said, 'OK.'"

The point is, this man, with no love for Islamic extremism nor Saddam, who isn't an anti-Semite either, strongly believes that the Israelis are in the wrong, and he justifies this through other experiences in his book. This isn't politics at work, it's something people believe for a reason.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:44 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
Eturnalshift wrote:
Let me ask you this - Do you think Saddam had WMDs in Iraq prior to our invasion in 2003?


I was very surprised when the invaders did not find any. Prior to the invasion, I believed that Saddam had WMDs. There is no question he had them prior to the Gulf War.

What are you getting at?
You're a smart guy, Aetsu, but I'm surprised you're not getting my point - Just because someone writes a book doesn't mean what they're writing about is true. Sada writes a book saying WMDs are in Syria, but no one but him has any record of that happening - no photographs, accounts, trails, intel, etc. Your author, like I said, could just be some bitter man who is looking to make a couple bucks... yet you tout his publication like it's wholly factual just because it supports your position?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:50 pm  
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Eturnalshift wrote:
You're a smart guy, Aetsu, but I'm surprised you're not getting my point - Just because someone writes a book doesn't mean what they're writing about is true. Sada writes a book saying WMDs are in Syria, but no one but him has any record of that happening - no photographs, accounts, trails, intel, etc. Your author, like I said, could just be some bitter man who is looking to make a couple bucks... yet you tout his publication like it's wholly factual just because it supports your position?


Are you referring to "By Way Of Deception"?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:54 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
So aestu, how would you solve this problem?


wat


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:56 pm  
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I answered you in part of another post on this page, Usd, and also on pages 3-4 in greater detail.


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