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Yeah, I'm not exactly an atheist (though I don't subscribe to a higher moral code, or the existence of any deity)

I find it a huge issue when people discuss eliminating religion from society. Not because I give a shit about religion, but because

1) It wouldn't happen, even if laws were made and punishments enforced. People will do what they wish and believe what they want regardless. It's not right to punish the 99% of religious folks who believe in peace and acceptance and turning the other cheek to neutralize the evil found in others such as the Taliban and WBC. Make it illegal, under punishment of death: people will still gather in secret, worship their gods, believe what they believe to be true. This is the key point. You can't control what people believe. You can influence it, but you can't control the thoughts inside of their head.

2) It shifts the focus and the responsibility from people who commit crimes under the pretense of religious beliefs onto an entire demographic of law abiding citizens who worship and practice their faith without causing trouble. If someone kills someone because Jesus told them to inside their head, punish that individual. Do not punish an entire group of people.


If you think otherwise, you are a fucking blight on society and you should go hurl yourself into a woodchipper.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

"Punishing" the practice of religion is less effective than making it inconvenient and using tax laws and zoning ordinances and the revocation of religious privileges to corner it out.

Not all social evils are violent. Mistruth and superstition are social evils too. They cause violence and hurt people just the same.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Nor will they acknowledge that. I'm too ignorant and sheltered to ever have a good point on these forums, remember?

As for the rest, blaming religion for the evils committed by the few...ok, are you ready to thank religion for the good committed by many?

No? I thought not.

What good might that be?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I dont have time to link articles about this before i have to be at work.

Have fun being obtuse.

I am ignoring aestu's posts, so I only saw the mention of stalin while skimming the last few pages I missed. I agree with you, people can be good with or without religion.



I really don't think you want to get into tit for tat over this, religion has been the single most driving force behind destruction and repression since the beginning of recorded time.

Dvergar /
Quisling

I am aware of this. I don't care. This is a discussion board, not a dialogue.

If some people feel they are too feeble and cowardly to handle ideas they don't like, that's their loss.



Nope. Greed and desire to dominate edge it out.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I'm for taxing religious organizations. Tax the shit out of them. Especially the Catholic Church. Most of their ridiculously large sums of money go towards pedo defense funds anyway, I'm sure.

Tax laws and zoning ordinances are fine, religious privileges would have to be defined to a greater degree for me to really decide what I think.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

People commit acts of good in the name of religion every day. Think of homeless shelters and soup kitchens run out of churches. Think of donations for victims of natural disasters on behalf of entire congregations. Think about prayer groups to help console people in times of grief, etc. etc.


Just as people commit evil acts in the name of religion, people commit acts of kindness and good in the name of religion. You can't claim that it doesn't happen with a straight face.

That's the problem, everyone wants to blame religion for all the ills in the world...but really....






Reposting for tuhl:



I disagree. Any time you are saying something is 100% a certain way (as in "I am 100% confident that god does not exist") you are taking an extreme position.


Also, this is the definition of "belief":


Atheism is not an absence of belief...you still believe in things if you are an atheist, you BELIEVE that there is no god. A belief in the absence of something is still a belief.

Religion is not the causal reason those things happen - human compassion is.

Insofar as religion is responsible for those things, it is evil, in that it creates a false good in place of human compassion. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is wrong, because the thing is arbitrary - the reasons are not. In another setting, those wrong reasons can and will cause evil.


The position is not extreme because truth is fundamentally moderate.
Truth stands between nihilism and delusion.



It's a belief that happens to be correct, based on facts and knowledge.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

So it's an ad hominem fallacy worthy of complaint when USD points to Stalin as an example of the dangers of atheism, but when Mayo points to a schizophrenic that drowns her kids as an example of the dangers of religion, that's not worthy of comment? You can't legitimately complain about USD's argument if you're going to let the people you agree with set that tone in the first place.



Azelma beat me to it, but he's right, it's not an "absence of belief," it's a belief in the absence of anything one can't prove exists. Take your second sentence and substitute the word "Christian" for the word "atheist," and both sentences work in exactly the same way.



No, but if USD's post is any example, they don't have any qualms about killing anyone else's simply for disagreeing with them, do they? Maybe someday we can live in a perfect world where insane mothers drive their kids into a lake not because "god told them to," but because they heard them praying and would rather that they die than live a life of ignorance.



To make the argument that the good done in the name of religion 'doesn't count' because its true source is human compassion only serves to validate the argument that the evil done in the name of religion 'doesn't count' because its true source is human failing.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Religion is a human institution that serves to unite individuals in the service of an ideology. It is an ideology based on falsehood.

Do individuals do good and evil? Yes, and the capacity of an organization to do either is increased exponentially beyond the sum of its parts. That is the point of organization. And hence there is a moral imperative to encourage the good and undermine the evil.

Unity in the service of an ideology of falsehood is inherently dangerous and evil, and great evil has come of it, evil that would not have come to pass had the organization been defunct.



A belief based on knowledge is not comparable to a belief based on ignorance.

My belief that the world is round is not comparable to the beliefs of some people that the world is flat, because I understand the reasons why the world is provably round.



The danger of religion is that it establishes a rationale for otherwise crazy behavior, and makes otherwise sane people party to it. Hence the point about religion "poisoning" people's minds.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Nothing about that refutes my point, Aestu. If the good is inconsequential, then so is the evil, for exactly the same reasons. Any organization's/movement's potential for good is proportionate to its potential for evil.



That's all well and good, but while you can prove that the world is round, you can't prove that God doesn't exist. You can say that the preponderance of the evidence points to that conclusion, but you can't say with 100% certainty that there is no god, yet this is exactly what atheism does. Atheism may seem more rational because of the preponderance of the evidence, but in the end it is no different than any form of theism in that both require a belief in what cannot be proven.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

That crazy lady who drowned her kids in Texas said she did it because God explicitly told her to do so. I'm pretty sure Stalin didn't kill millions of people for the sole reason of being an atheist. Keep on grasping for straws.


Being dry isn't "an absence of wet", its a belief in the thought that you aren't wet.


Or maybe they can just do it because they're crazy and don't need any religious context.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

OH! So now we can admit that she was crazy. That's almost like progress! Maybe before we're completely done, you'll see the error of suggesting that someone who is obviously insane is representative of such a large number of people who clearly aren't.



Saying that "it wasn't for the sole reason" is as good as admitting that it numbered among the reasons, just as religion numbered among the reasons for such historical tragedies as slavery. Clearly, if atheism can only be blamed in part when it plays a role, religion can only be blamed in part (and not in whole) when it plays a role and isn't the sole determining factor.



Well, since you feel that way, maybe you can wrap your brain around the idea that maybe "religious context" doesn't matter when you're dealing with someone who is mentally ill.




That's the point, pal. Atheism isn't any different than any other religious point-of-view, and is subject to the same human failings as Christianity, Islam, or any other religion, which is all the more reason why it's funny when atheists jump on their moral high horse as fast as any crazy evangelical baptist snake-handler.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste