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Your argument is predicated on five faulty premises:

1. That Plan B will incentive irresponsible behavior. It won't, because people being irresponsible is the status quo.
2. That exposure to adults can positively shape kids. Not true, again, the status quo is proof of that, and not all adults can be trusted with a kid.
3. That Plan B doesn't fix or change anything. It does; if a pregnancy has been prevented, the situation has been improved.
4. That emphasizing condoms, Plan B and STD treatment are mutually exclusive so far as STD action goes. No: the same rule that applies to abortion applies here too: "safe, legal and rare". An abortion is an unpleasant experience that yields a better result. Same with taking antibiotics or Plan B. Whether it improves the person is beside the point - it does no harm, and it makes a bad situation better.
5. That people have an epiphany at the age of 18 and are instantly fully formed adults ready for the Robinson Crusoe life. Doesn't work that way, and even into adulthood there's no reason to make help available other than pure malice.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

You are aware that there are symptomless STDs that can be spread, right? Ever hear of HPV and all its various strands? That can't be cured.

You are also aware that there are other STDs that cannot be cured. How about herpes? That can't be cured, merely controlled, and it can still spread even with treatment. And you yourself admit that antibiotics do nothing for HIV/AIDS.

Simply going after symptoms is not effective.

I agree we should research antibiotics and try to help people who already have these diseases...but there should CERTAINLY be a focus on preventing these diseases in the first place, considering the diseases that will remain with you forever.




At the risk of going off topic, let me point out that the only drug I've ever done is Cannabis.

I will say this though, since you brought it up - this happened just this last Wednesday: I had a panic attack while high, it was the 2nd time it has happened in my life while using Marijuana (convinced I was going to have a heart attack). I realized that I've reached a point in my life (having smoked consistently from age 20-25) that I need to move on from Marijuana. Yes, I had what could only be described as an epiphany. To that end, I smashed both my pieces that night, flushed my remaining marijuana down the toilet, and informed my dealer that I was done purchasing.

I haven't smoked since then, and have made no attempts to purchase any new pieces or cannabis.

I still don't think Marijuana is an evil drug, or even a bad one (it's still one of the most harmless, though it has it's negative side effects ha). But like everything, there comes a time when you must "grow up." I had a lot of fun with it, but I don't plan on picking it back up again.

Yes Aestu, people can change
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Anyway, back to the topic at hand - you may be right, keeping this at 17+ won't force parents to be better parents. It just doesn't sit well with me...the idea that some 12 year old girl could go and get such a pill without her guardian or at least some adult in her life having any knowledge.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Hence why you do testing and documentation. Making those things free and accessible incentives responsible behavior.



Refusing to distribute Plan B does not accomplish this goal.

If the argument is that Plan B accomplishes the goal by way of increasing the penalty, then why not just brand people who get STDs or put them in the stockade, and also abort the baby? Then the goal - increasing the penalty - is accomplished while also realizing the benefit of Plan B (pregnancy prevention). Would you consent to something like that?



And you're not 18. So you disproved your own claim: that a 22-year-old isn't going to change his habits.



From my point of view, medical harm is not the point. I consider using mood-altering substances a mark of poor character. It betrays an inclination towards dishonesty and cowardice. Courageous and honest people don't need to change how they feel by taking drugs because they can't deal with unpleasant emotions, and they don't seek to alter their own mental state through chemical means. The first part of courage and honesty is simply the capacity to live with oneself.


But they can have sex with a condom without a parent knowing, no? They can conceive without a parent knowing, no?

So what's the difference? If the kid gets Plan B "without the parent knowing", doesn't that just mean the kid made a bad decision then did the right thing? Hence, the parent already did their job by raising the kid to clean up her own mess.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

What's the difference between this Plan B and any other birth control?

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Oh, morning after pill. I've never heard it referred to as Plan B.

Seems to me that the 17+ notion is trying to legislate positive behavior.

Trying to pass legislation to force positive behavior is never a good idea. It usually leads to negative unintended consequences.

You want a good way to promote good behavior in this situation?
Do less. As in, don't pay for it.

All laws exist to force positive behavior. By this logic, anarchy is the best form of government.

Should truancy be legal?
Should selling cigarettes and alcohol to children be legal?
Should having sex with children be legal?

Where do you draw the line?



Should we pay for public school?
Should we pay for medical care for children?
Should we pay for school buses?
Should we pay for orphanages?

What makes this situation different from any other situation where decisions are made about the well-being of the populace?

How is progress to come about from inaction? When has inaction caused progress?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Most laws exist to protect rights.

The laws that exists to force good behavior, force it from the parents on the child's behalf, because children aren't granted many rights. I should never say never though, there is a case to be made in forcing some good behaviors, I'll concede that. But many still have outweighing and unintended negative consequences.

In this situation, you have law forcing good behavior (with extremely rare exceptions where it becomes negative behavior) on top of already good behavior (unless you're one of those rare exceptions that would turn bringing up dialogue between parent and child a negative thing).

Where as truancy and licit drug use are forcing good behavior to prevent bad.

Though I do think most truancy and licit drug use laws involving children are stricter than they need be.

As for the sex with children bit, there's harm involved in these scenarios. Though I think our our pedophilia laws, that really encompass pedophilia all the way to ephebophilia, are somewhat stricter than they need be.



Not all progress is good progress.

I think you probably already know my answers to those questions too.

How is this proposal "forcing" good behavior? No one is "forced" to take Plan B.

So far as the compulsion of law goes - who's to draw the line, or say that truancy and sex abuse are bad but letting people die when they might be saved is not?

When I say "progress", I mean improvements in our standard of living, physical safety, education and egalitarianism. Could you call any such progress "bad"?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

What about people who prefer to live out their fantasies in virtual worlds rather than face their own emotions/issues?

They've done studies - video games change brain chemistry:

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Vi ... 19928.html

No doubt...that World of Warcraft addiction is a real thing...how do you feel while you play? Do you ever wish you were playing when you aren't?

http://www.nickyee.com/hub/addiction/psychology.html
http://n4g.com/user/blogpost/xx-stolensoul-xx/518604

I'm just saying, video games alter your mind/mood....and don't try to pretend that when you're feeling stressed or worried, or "bored" that you don't like to play games. For the record, part of my epiphany was that I need to severely limit the amount of time I spend accomplishing nothing in video games. I'm trying to read more every time I want to play a game...and am also working on learning the guitar.

Any and all experiences change brain chemistry. The difference is between perception and actually interfering with the internal functioning of the brain.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

You're rationalizing here. You are interfering with the brain's normal function. While you play WoW you are triggering dopamine releases in your brain that wouldn't otherwise occur: http://parents.berkeley.edu/advice/teen ... ction.html . This is what makes video games addictive.

We all do things that aren't the best for ourselves (either from a health or simply spiritual/philosophical standpoint) - to draw the line and say "if you do drugs, you are a coward" but then to think wasting hours upon hours in a virtual game that means nothing, teaches you nothing, and contributes nothing to society is just fine is disingenuous at best.

People turn all sorts of things into drugs. You have people who make running or exercise their drug. You have people who make sex their drug. You have people who make cannabis, coke, or heroin their drug. You have people who make eating their drug. And yes, you have people who make video games their drug of choice.

Anyway, we're veering way too far off topic here. Facts are facts. Rationalize however you want, it won't change them.

the cocaine isn't the drug, the chemical reactions are.

the cocaine is the catalyst.

Given that the 'drugs' in question are only illegal because our exceptionally-puritan government says so, and the fact that drug use of one form or another has been a constant for all of recorded human history from the greatest of every generation to the lowliest, the argument that only a flawed, weak, and cowardly group of individuals use drugs is both foolish and completely without merit. You are brainwashed, just keep regurgitating the lines of Nancy Reagan.

Dvergar /
Quisling

there are drugs that should be illegal because they actually do ruin people's lives.

you can't be arguing that all drugs should be legal.

I think he's saying that it's silly that cannabis is illegal.

I agree though that shit like meth and heroin should be illegal.

That's true of any experience - all experiences take place within the brain. Any pleasurable experience releases dopamine because that's its intended function, to register pleasure. Dopamine is released when you pet a dog. The study you've Googled up is correlative pseudoscience.

-Drugs cause the release of dopamine
-Video games cause the release of dopamine
-Therefore, video games are drugs.

-Rosatia, a skin disorder, causes blushing.
-Getting annoyed causes blushing.
-Therefore, getting annoyed is a skin disorder.

-Foreign matter in the eyes causes involuntary blinking.
-Surprise causes involuntary blinking.
-Therefore, surprise is a form of foreign matter in the eyes.

Correlation versus causation. Regarding correlation as equivalent to causation (self-regulation versus interference by foreign agent) is pseudoscience.



I don't claim it does. And it doesn't need to. The difference between games and drugs is that the mind deals with one and not the other discretely.



Sex is not a drug. Sex, like video games, can be the object of compulsive behavior, but that doesn't make it a drug. A drug is a chemical that affects the brain. A video game, like sex, is simply an experience. There is a difference.



What facts? That pleasurable activities register as pleasurable? That's a fact, but it's tautological and irrelevant.



Slavery is culturally universal. Should, therefore, slavery be legal? What about war? War is culturally universal. Does it therefore follow that war is okay?

I don't like or support the Reagans or their world view. What is your basis for arguing that I am "brainwashed" and not simply arguing what I personally believe for my own reasons?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.