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 Post subject: Re: Who Needs Civil Rights?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:49 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu, I feel like you would have to at least agree with some of the statements here, no?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... al-control


Quote:
The political use of forced nudity by anti-democratic regimes is long established. Forcing people to undress is the first step in breaking down their sense of individuality and dignity and reinforcing their powerlessness. Enslaved women were sold naked on the blocks in the American south, and adolescent male slaves served young white ladies at table in the south, while they themselves were naked: their invisible humiliation was a trope for their emasculation. Jewish prisoners herded into concentration camps were stripped of clothing and photographed naked, as iconic images of that Holocaust reiterated.

One of the most terrifying moments for me when I visited Guantanamo prison in 2009 was seeing the way the architecture of the building positioned glass-fronted shower cubicles facing intentionally right into the central atrium – where young female guards stood watch over the forced nakedness of Muslim prisoners, who had no way to conceal themselves. Laws and rulings such as this are clearly designed to bring the conditions of Guantanamo, and abusive detention, home.


Haven't you always said we're being brainwashed/intimidated?


Quote:
The most terrifying phrase of all in the decision is justice Kennedy's striking use of the term "detainees" for "United States citizens under arrest". Some members of Occupy who were arrested in Los Angeles also reported having been referred to by police as such. Justice Kennedy's new use of what looks like a deliberate activation of that phrase is illuminating.

Ten years of association have given "detainee" the synonymous meaning in America as those to whom no rights apply – especially in prison. It has been long in use in America, habituating us to link it with a condition in which random Muslims far away may be stripped by the American state of any rights. Now the term – with its associations of "those to whom anything may be done" – is being deployed systematically in the direction of … any old American citizen.

Where are we headed? Why? These recent laws criminalizing protest, and giving local police – who, recall, are now infused with DHS money, military hardware and personnel – powers to terrify and traumatise people who have not gone through due process or trial, are being set up to work in concert with a see-all-all-the-time surveillance state. A facility is being set up in Utah by the NSA to monitor everything all the time: James Bamford wrote in Wired magazine that the new facility in Bluffdale, Utah, is being built, where the NSA will look at billions of emails, texts and phone calls. Similar legislation is being pushed forward in the UK.

With that Big Brother eye in place, working alongside these strip-search laws, – between the all-seeing data-mining technology and the terrifying police powers to sexually abuse and humiliate you at will – no one will need a formal coup to have a cowed and compliant citizenry. If you say anything controversial online or on the phone, will you face arrest and sexual humiliation?

Remember, you don't need to have done anything wrong to be arrested in America any longer. You can be arrested for walking your dog without a leash. The man who was forced to spread his buttocks was stopped for a driving infraction. I was told by an NYPD sergeant that "safety" issues allow the NYPD to make arrests at will. So nothing prevents thousands of Occupy protesters – if there will be any left after these laws start to bite – from being rounded up and stripped naked under intimidating conditions.

Why is this happening? I used to think the push was just led by those who profited from endless war and surveillance – but now I see the struggle as larger. As one internet advocate said to me: "There is a race against time: they realise the internet is a tool of empowerment that will work against their interests, and they need to race to turn it into a tool of control."


Don't you agree with the Occupy movement, and that they have been oppressed.


Admit it, this is the United States Government

That's not to say all government is evil, or that government can't be run effectively. But our government is doing this. Whether it's driven primarily by private interests or not; it is BOTH of them working together. Private manipulates public, public is able to be manipulated. They work together to control the United States.

Surely you see this? This is no ancient greece idealized form of government. This is humanity in action - power CORRUPTS. Self interest dominates and now we are becoming a police state. The benevolent politicians in this country can do nothing to stop it, and most of them are keeping things moving right along smoothly, according to plan.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: Who Needs Civil Rights?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:59 pm  
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French Faggot
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:15 pm
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I read that article earlier today. Intentionally or not, it's overstating the point. The searches are incident to entry into a jail or prison. It does not mean a cop can decide, in plain view while passersby look on, to strip search you. Additionally, probably in an effort to control groping, Kennedy said the searches are to be visual. That shouldn't make you feel better about it (because it still sucks) but let's at least complain about facts instead of making up stuff in order to get even angrier.

Alarmists are making me sound conservative. This is the worst.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
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 Post subject: Re: Who Needs Civil Rights?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:11 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I'd be curious to see what case files they're talking about specifically that the people arguing this legislation used. "Well we brought this guy in on a DUI and then he whipped an Uzi out of his ass and started shooting everyone in the jailhouse."

Not saying that's feasible, but I'm sure it would be an interesting read regardless.


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 Post subject: Re: Who Needs Civil Rights?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:56 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:44 am
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anything dealing with the armed forces/police is a political minefield: politicians will give anyone whatever they ask for so that they cannot be called unpatriotic/whatever


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 Post subject: Re: Who Needs Civil Rights?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:07 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:19 pm
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Azelma wrote:
Admit it, this is the United States Government

That's not to say all government is evil, or that government can't be run effectively. But our government is doing this. Whether it's driven primarily by private interests or not; it is BOTH of them working together. Private manipulates public, public is able to be manipulated. They work together to control the United States.


Nope. It's private industry plain and simple.

You're confusing two separate things: the political process and the apparatus of state.

The political process has been increasingly bypassed as controller of the apparatus of state by the weakness of the former, because idiots like you refuse to put any faith in the government and think that lasseiz-faire will empower you rather than allow powerful monied interests to control the game.

The political process has never been weaker in America than it is now. Do we have conscription? Nationalization? Big infrastructure projects? Aggressively enforced wage and safety laws? A broad public sector equalizing opportunity for everything from education to research? When it comes time to negotiate everything from salaries to bonds, who has more power, industry or government?

Also note that private industry has a much easier time keeping secrets than government. Short of classified military information (which actually isn't that important), wanting to know something about the mechanics of government is as simple as mailing in a request. Private industry, on the other hand, is accountable to no one and doesn't have to tell you (or anyone else) anything they don't feel like.

Whenever the idea is floated of making the government more assertive for the common man, the "Capitalist Pravda" screams tyranny and you think that it's going to "slow growth" or "shackle innovation" or "infringe on economic freedoms". You dig your own grave.

Azelma wrote:
Surely you see this? This is no ancient greece idealized form of government. This is humanity in action - power CORRUPTS. Self interest dominates and now we are becoming a police state. The benevolent politicians in this country can do nothing to stop it, and most of them are keeping things moving right along smoothly, according to plan.


What exactly do you mean by "ancient greek idealized form of government"?

If you think self-interest is the problem, how do you believe it works its evil, and how would you stop it?

Anyway, what Tuhl said. You're conflating two separate issues. And I believe the reason that the media is doing so is to smokescreen the more serious issue (which isn't strip searching).

Usd, it's ridiculous you say that as a would-be cop. A razor blade or a condom full of drugs stuffed into the rectum are immensely useful and dangerous in prison.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Who Needs Civil Rights?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:15 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:19 pm
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Derp.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Who Needs Civil Rights?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:33 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:41 am
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Aestu wrote:
The TLDR of all this, which I know you are too dumb and apathetic to read


You know, up to this point in your post I had read every last word you wrote.

You actually had some valid points - but no - you had to go and ruin it because you are so petty and biased.


Fuck you. Seriously.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: Who Needs Civil Rights?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:12 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I'm always ready to apologize for a mistake.

If you read that then you read the whole thing. What did you make of it? Be specific.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Who Needs Civil Rights?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:31 am  
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Str8 Actin Dude
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 3:33 pm
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Aestu wrote:
I'm always ready to apologize for a mistake.

If you read that then you read the whole thing. What did you make of it? Be specific.


OHMYGODDONTDOITAZELMA

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Suggested reading for you Aestu.


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 Post subject: Re: Who Needs Civil Rights?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:58 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:19 pm
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I've read that book. Have you? What's the author's central thesis?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Who Needs Civil Rights?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:29 am  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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You're still holding out for me to engage you in a serious manner?


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 Post subject: Re: Who Needs Civil Rights?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:36 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Battletard wrote:
You're still holding out for me to engage you in a serious manner?

So if that is not your intent why are you posting?

I can stop "holding out for a serious manner" and instead treat you like a small child if it is your intent to behave like one. Is that what you want?

And I'll pre-empt a "no u" here. If I'm addressing you in a way that begs a "serious manner" and you refuse to meet that approach in kind, the only one behaving like a sulking child is you.

So, would you care to answer my question?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Who Needs Civil Rights?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:13 am  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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Aestu wrote:
So if that is not your intent why are you posting?


You daft git, he's mocking you. He posting because you're the punchline to his joke. No one cares how you treat them, because the way you treat everyone ranges from condescension at best to unrestrained disdain at worst. No one would know whether or not you were treating them like a child because you talk to everyone as if they were as a habit. I don't know about anyone else, but I no longer engage you seriously, because it's pointless. I'll refute some of your sillier assertions now and again, but attempting to have a rational conversation with you is like arguing with a woman: no sane thing you say matters and she keeps changing the subject any time you approach a point in the conversation where it's obvious she's in error. If any of us were interested in that, we'd start dating, because at least there'd be sex to balance out the hassle.

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 Post subject: Re: Who Needs Civil Rights?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:36 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Jubbergun wrote:
You daft git, he's mocking you. He posting because you're the punchline to his joke. No one cares how you treat them


His butt hurts or it doesn't. If it doesn't hurt, cut the mewling.

Jubbergun wrote:
I don't know about anyone else, but I no longer engage you seriously, because it's pointless. I'll refute some of your sillier assertions now and again, but attempting to have a rational conversation with you is like arguing with a woman: no sane thing you say matters and she keeps changing the subject any time you approach a point in the conversation where it's obvious she's in error.


Projection.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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