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I'd respect transgenders a lot more if 85% of the shit I hear about them aren't petty grabs for attention.

RETIRED.
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And why might that be? Do you think women inherently are born and just have this focus on beauty being important? Or do you think that maybe it's part of society, both pressures from men, and other women propelling the viewpoint?

What's one of the first questions asked of men when discussing a potential girlfriend, or the new girl at work, or the new girl in class.... "is she hot?"

Look at the employees at many large companies (specifically marketing firms)...all the women happen to be incredibly attractive. Look at pharmaceutical reps, etc. Is this coincidence? I think not.

How do we judge the success of our sexual exploits -- How attractive was she?

Men get a little of this, but not nearly as much. For a man, it's much more important to be a provider, to be smart, strong, and competitive.

To be a woman is to know how to be beautiful. Why do women even have makeup? Why do they go through all the relentless pruning and primping to get ready to go out? Do you think it's purely a female construct that they would put themselves through horrible things like wearing high heels? Why do they wear high heels? Because it raises their ass and makes it look better. Why do they do that?

Who will go further in life, the woman wearing baggy jeans and sweatshirts all day with no makeup, or the woman dressed in a sexy dress with beautiful hair and makeup done just perfectly? Who will get more male attention?



The reason of the question is so we know how to think about the baby, how to judge it, how to raise it, how to interact with it, what products we should buy it etc.

I don't see it as driving home that "absurdity" because Sex and Gender are two different things.

If you have a dick, okay, you are of the male sex. But what if you're attracted to guys? What if you like wearing women's clothing and putting on makeup. What if you feel very feminine and want a boyfriend. Not to be vulgar, but what if the act of being penetrated is more arousing to you than penetrating?

Again, I don't know the answer to these questions, and I can't presume to know what goes on in the mind of someone who is transgender. What I can say is that I've known people like that...and it's very fundamental to who they are.


Think of it culturally. It's a loose connection, but stay with me. I know this one girl, she's a white girl. She's obsessed with everything Asian. OBSESSED with Asian culture. She joined an Asian sorority, has only asian friends, only dates Asian men, is obsessed with anime, learning Japanese etc, asian cooking etc. She has told me, and I quote, "I was born to the wrong race" -- now yes, it's a little weird, but obviously something innate in her yearns to be fully a part of that culture and that race. Who am I to say "well, that's just fucked up, you're a white girl there's something wrong with you. Embrace your own culture"


The mind and body are separate things. You of all people should recognize that the expectations and standards thrust upon you mean dick, Aestu. Your mind, your will, is what's most important. After all, aren't our bodies just disgusting sacks of flesh which are vessels for our minds (or our "souls" if you believe in such a thing)? Most of the time everything matches up (mind and body). But sometimes, for whatever reason, it doesn't. That's okay in my book, and we shouldn't disregard it just because it's not our experience.

I agree with this, but it's not specific to transgendered people. There was a time when society had a shared sense of what was and was not socially acceptable, and you would have stabbed someone in the neck and hid the body to keep anyone from knowing you had fallen outside the guidelines. Now you have people who openly flaunt their debauchery and act as if any judgment of their foul behavior is worse than their behavior. In most cases, it's just idiots looking for attention, Jerry Springer style.

Part of the problem is that we've done everything possible as a society to remove the negative consequences of idiocy. The other part of the problem is that we've gone beyond neutralizing the consequences to celebrating people we should be condemning, like Kim Kardashian and every moron on Jersey Shore.

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Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

I fail to see how defending someone who is living as a transgendered person is the same as giving a TV Show to a bunch of alcoholic, idiotic guidos.

But hey what do I know. I guess all transgendered people are in it for the attention and enjoy living lives full of debauchery?



Ah yes, those were the days. When living in fear of judgement was the norm.

The first question I ask when I find out someone is pregnant is if they even wanted kids to begin with >.<



The women I've seen go furthest in life look completely ragged. They are financially independent and highly educated. Being pretty (which only decays over time) doesn't seem like the best long-term approach. There are famous examples of women who are notoriously ugly yet successful, and many of the tenured faculty/department chairs at my university are women who don't fit your description.

I'd guess that the women who do best are the ones that care the least for femininity.

Wait, let me see if I got this right...

If I believe I can fly, and if I flap my arms hard enough... I'm a bird?

Poor bird, trapped in a human's body. Even worse that society doesn't accept you, and the public doesn't understand you!

Here, have some surgery so you can chirp like you were meant to. And have some legal protection so you can lash out against anyone who disagrees with your birdness.

Never mind the fact that 20 years ago, believing you were a bird would have you medicated and locked up in a mental ward. Forget about all of that, "progressive" is the buzzword these days, and if we aren't moving "forward," society will suck!

You can be a transgendered person and not do things like insist on changing in the opposite gender's locker room when you're still, for all intents and purposes, a man. What about the women who don't feel comfortable with a middle-aged man changing with them in the woman's locker room? Don't they get a say in this?

If this was a post-op MtF transgender, I'd be perfectly okay with it (and it wouldn't be a story). This isn't the case.

RETIRED.
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All of which is human nature and culturally universal.

That is the hard counter to the "gender is a social construct" bullshit. Like many viewpoints in contemporary America, it's an ideology born of ignorance.



No, they aren't. Gender and sex are synonyms. The argument to the contrary is nonsense, and the proof that it's bullshit is that it is non-falsifiable.



Irrelevant. Has no bearing on gender.



Which is proof that they are perverts, driven by the vacuousness of their character. If your sexuality is the fundamental definition of your person, you need to "get a life".

The same is true of a heterosexual sexaholic.



You are arguing a fallacy commonly pushed by the ultra-liberal crowd - that all variables that define the human condition are mutually interchangeable and operate according to the same rules.

Obviously, race, gender, sexual preference and culture are all completely different variables, driven by completely different things, and they operate in different ways. Your analogy between them is inherently baseless.

More likely your friend is just a loser. She can't find an identity for herself within the framework of her own culture, so she seeks validation by way of another.

Doing things that have absolutely nothing to do with that culture, such as dating men of the Asian race, learning Japanese, learning Asian cooking, are proof of that. They are way of seeking validation, but they have nothing to do with understanding and identifying with the culture.

A culture is a set of shared beliefs, values, attitudes, a common history. How well does she actually understand Asians? How much does she know about their history? About their way of life? How does her knowledge of their culture influence her views and behavior? Never mind, of course, that while Asian cultures do tend to have some things in common (amongst them a strong sense of "face" and a value system that honors hard work and filial & personal loyalty above all else) they are very diverse.

Take me, for example. I am Jewish-American, and my interest is in the classical cultures. I don't run around in a toga or wear earlocks or a Star of David necklace or use Latin expressions in daily speech, or cook ancient Roman recipes or latkes. Instead, when I talk about my cultural background, I talk about how it influenced me, how I understand and take something from those cultures. I also frequently talk about the French and German way of life; not that I love berets and wine or sausages, but that I understand what those people believe and what makes them do what they do, and I try to adapt their cultural distinctiveness in the service of my own development.

I remember working for that pawn shop a few years back. The proprietor was a neo-Nazi, but he was also a very nice guy. I came to understand that for him, this obsession with collecting Nazi relics (he actually subscribed to a catalogue that sold them - he also collected lunchboxes from the 50s) was the product of an absence of real culture.

I would argue the same is true of your friend, and many people on this forum. The lack of real cultural identity leads them to seek personal definition through political affiliation. This is why I have come to believe that this country can only be fixed by establishing a clearly defined culture.



Mind-body dualism is a paradox that is not relevant to discussions about tangibles, and merely serves as a way of escaping burden of proof.

Proving my point: this gender crap is BS because it's not falsifiable.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Agree 100%.

I'm not arguing for this specific situation. I'm arguing that transgender is a real thing. Apologies if that came across differently. Aestu, Eturnal, and Alopex are saying that transgender people are just insane and that it's not a real thing. They say it's just people wanting to live lives full of debauchery. I disagree.

Anybody like The Matrix?

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Meet "Lana" (formerlly Laurence) Wachowski.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/201 ... oming.html


Transcript:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/l ... ard-382177




Amazing:



That is an impressive strawman argument. It really strengthened your position and showed how absurd my statements were...because believing you're a bird is the exact same thing as feeling you are the opposite gender.


Anywho, I'm not going to sit here and argue, you all obviously have the answers. Transgenderedness, to you, is a myth. It's just some sick individual who wants attention or is a sexual deviant. I disagree. I think we shouldn't judge so easily just because something isn't our experience. I believe the mind and body are separate....you'll use a strawman argument, aestu will rage about me not being able to prove anything, and here we sit.

I hope you all have an experience where you meet a transgendered person and have a positive interaction with them, realize they are human, and realize that they aren't any less deserving of rights than you.

It won't happen, but I hope it does.

Good day.

Please don't Godwin.

You inadvertently proved Jubber's point. You speak pejoratively of "alcoholic, idiotic guidos". Obviously, you have your own system of values, which you believe in, because it makes sense to you. Which, of course, it should. Obviously someone who is a "alcoholic, idiotic guido" is not as good or effective or noble as person who is sober, thoughtful and unaffected.

A society's fate lies with its value system. That is the importance of a good value system, and that is the purpose of comparing values. The point of cultural interchange is not to blithely accept all values as equivalent, nor to impose each others' views, it is for each culture to learn from the others and achieve a new level of development.

That is the history which has brought us to this point. We live in the Western culture, which is a pastiche of Classical and Jewish ideas, subject to a few thousand years of churn and gradual refinement.

It's worth pointing out that one of the major factors that made Hitler successful - this is not a Godwin because it is relevant and factual - is that many Germans, who didn't dislike Jews or seek world domination, were sick and tired of the chaos and debauchery of 1920s Germany. They wanted a unified and proud culture, and Hitler gave it to them.

We focus on the death camps and invasions of other countries, but Hitler also did a lot of other things that were more subtle and lost on most people today, some of which were actually quite progressive, such as reforestation, anti-smoking, and re-establishment of family life. In fact, a major factor in the Allies winning the war was that due to Nazi ideology's vision of women existing to "look beautiful and bring children into this world", they had no Rosie the Riveter; German women did not take war jobs.

I am of the viewpoint that the legacy of the Nazis and Communists and subsequent American hegemony has been to greatly narrow the scope of political ideas. The baby has been thrown out with the bathwater, if you will - few people can examine ideas such as Communism and National Socialism objectively, take what is good and kitbash them with our own free-market democratic ideas.

I mean do we discard Americana because it brutally exterminated the Native Americans and enslaved the blacks? Or do we discard Roman or Jewish ideas because of the horrible things those people did in their own past? No - we just try to understand (or not) how those evils reflected and influenced the culture. Over the years, I have gradually come to agree with the liberal viewpoint that slavery and stealing the country from the Native Americans has been an insidious poison in the American culture; because this country was not always ours, we do not understand the concept of stewardship; and our contempt for the blacks blinds us to the frailty of the human condition.

The fact remains that a society needs common ideas to be viable. A society can't get by without shared ideas of right and wrong, or what social priorities should be. Even a flawed system is better than none at all, because it can be modified and changed over time.

Such is the flow of history, that has, and will continue, to lead us to a better world.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

The only strawman here is yours: that we seek to deny transgendered people "rights". Not at all; we think they have the same rights we do, which is to do their thing and receive protection of the law.

On the contrary, it is the transgendered people who think their rights are different than ours: they think they have the right to their opinion and those who disagree do not.

Alopex's comparison is completely relevant. A person is not a bird, and a man is not a woman. MJ was black, not white, but he got surgery to pretend he was white because he had deep self-loathing due to a troubled background. That doesn't mean we think he's evil or he should be forcibly restrained from doing what he wanted to do, but neither would he or anyone else have any right to prevent others from having and discussing their opinion about him.

I bolded a part of what you wrote that demonstrates the hypocrisy of this woman. She says that life as a transgendered person is "inherent tragedy". Really. My father is blind. That's an inherent tragedy. If I lost a limb tomorrow, that would be a tragedy. It wouldn't be a tragedy that I found out I liked Marmite or anal sex. Unusual, perhaps; revolting to some people, but not a tragedy. You can't say in one breath you think you're fine and that you are a tragedy.

Now maybe you want to say, social conditions make her life a tragedy. Yet the audience applaudes, she's on TV, and there are laws and mores to protect her - but NOT those who think otherwise. You don't get to have the protections of law and mores on the one hand and claim you are a victim of the powerful on the other. Social power is as social power does.

Even that anecdote of hers. She was never one of the boys, certainly the boys, who were sexually normal, didn't see her that way. What she was, was different, bold, and the center of attention. That is the recurring constant, that desire for attention and validation. Why should we not believe that's the driving force in her life?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Look at it this way, Azelma.

I once called you "the national windsock". You blow with the wind, and even you would agree that thinking impartially about any topic is very hard for you.

Here you have a pretext to leave the thread, feeling you've claimed the moral high ground...is it that what you believe is right, or that you can believe that social bias lets you claim it is?

If it's the former, then why not defend it in its own right? Why rely on social bias? Doesn't that prove the hypocrisy of your entire position?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Its a real thing, but its most definitely a mental disorder.

RETIRED.
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Yeah I don't even know what we're arguing about. She was getting applause as she was getting an award for spreading awareness.


It sounds like Eturnal wants to put transgendered people in institutions. I think that's wrong. That's what I'm saying.



I think transgendered people shouldn't have "more" rights, but the exact same rights. I think they are louder about it because they are the minority. We've been over this before. It seems like they are just making a stink and want pats on the back, but they are the oppressed group.

A post-op tranny should be able to go into places with their new gender and be just fine. That's what I'm saying.

I don't think transgendered people are "dirty" or "evil" or just into "debauchery" as has been suggested here. I don't think supporting their lifestyle choices means that we should descend into a society of heathens.

Just like this and feminist ideals, you come from your own worldview....as a straight male. I'm trying to understand that my experience doesn't trump everyone else's.

This is making me angry though because I'm having trouble not seeing prejudice in the words being said here. So I'm out.