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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:10 pm  
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Pinheaded Pissant
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Battletard wrote:
It's not like the government needs to raise taxes, they need to cut military spending.


heresy! we need our squadrons of fighter planes to fight the russians in 1986.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:13 pm  
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Pinheaded Pissant
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re: military spending

we are the new roman empire. we have armies all over the world. we are basically treating much of the rest of the world as our protectorates, including many first world nations.

it's not very surprising that it costs so much, or that we can't afford it.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:44 pm  
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Jubbergun wrote:
like India did after the Brits finally left.


I'm not sure that's a good comparison. For starters (I'm probably forgetting some tiny countries no one cares about - like Sri Lanka) but all that really happened here was the India/Pakistan split. Are they unfriendly to each other? Sure. Are they likely to stop any time soon? No.

Have they had a war that resulted in 600,000 deaths like we did with ourselves in 1860? Lookin' good so far, India.

If Iraq on its own does as well as that, job well done. If they follow our cue though, things will get ugly.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:50 pm  
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America averages a major conflict ever 15-25 years.

at some point, we're gonna have to stop that shit.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:02 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
America averages a major conflict ever 15-25 years.

at some point, we're gonna have to stop that shit.


Yeah probably...

Not that I predict it or anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if, after a while, the rest of the world gets fed up with us either picking fights or interjecting ourselves into fights and escalating them all the time, and turns around and bitch slaps us.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:17 pm  
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I wouldn't say we "escalate" them. What happens is, we go in, the usual "boo-hoo, war is bad, the military is a bunch of rapists/baby-killers" shit starts, everyone gets all touchy-fucking-feely, the military gets--because of politics--gets more worried about public opinion than it does about what it's there to do in the first place (kill people and break things).

The point of a military is to fuck somebody up until they stop doing whatever it is you don't want them doing. It's not supposed to be the fucking Peace Corps. If you're going to use the military, use it, don't tie its hands and drag shit out. War should be treated like Las Vegas: No press and paparazzi, and what happens there, stays there. Not saying it should be anything goes, but I think the military could fry the asses of miscreants like the ones at Abu Graib without it being a media circus.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:25 pm  
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We don't go in meaning to escalate them, but if you pull a gun in a knife fight shit moves to another level.

That's us. We show up with guns to knife fights. And then it turns into a gun fight.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:21 pm  
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dek wrote:
re: military spending

we are the new roman empire. we have armies all over the world. we are basically treating much of the rest of the world as our protectorates, including many first world nations.



Our parallels to the Romans are frightening.

Over-extended military yes... and a big one: Roman Empire: 1/3 of citizens in debt / forced into share crop / slave labor to make their payments ; How many americans are in debt just for "their" house? or car + everything else? Probably more than 1/3.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:29 pm  
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Rathmoon wrote:
Our parallels to the Romans are frightening.

Over-extended military yes... and a big one: Roman Empire: 1/3 of citizens in debt / forced into share crop / slave labor to make their payments ; How many americans are in debt just for "their" house? or car + everything else? Probably more than 1/3.


It's more interesting to read about the social changes in Rome.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:37 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
Rathmoon wrote:
Our parallels to the Romans are frightening.

Over-extended military yes... and a big one: Roman Empire: 1/3 of citizens in debt / forced into share crop / slave labor to make their payments ; How many americans are in debt just for "their" house? or car + everything else? Probably more than 1/3.


It's more interesting to read about the social changes in Rome.


The part where they're starving when the gov don't have no mo bread to give them?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:56 pm  
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Remember how the Romans allowed/brought in barbarians to do the jobs Romans wouldn't do, and the barbarians sacked Rome?

Yeah, we definitely have nothing in common with old Rome...<cough>

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:21 pm  
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Rathmoon wrote:
The part where they're starving when the gov don't have no mo bread to give them?


No, about social instability, privatization, deindustrialization, the dramatic increase in the divorce rate (in the late Republic the divorce rate was over 50% and serial marriage was common), the increase in petty ambition and how all this led to a change in form of government.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:24 pm  
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Jubbergun wrote:
Remember how the Romans allowed/brought in barbarians to do the jobs Romans wouldn't do, and the barbarians sacked Rome?

Yeah, we definitely have nothing in common with old Rome...<cough>

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:25 pm  
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I thought the barbarians burning down the city did that.

hrm.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:25 pm  
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Jubbergun wrote:
Remember how the Romans allowed/brought in barbarians to do the jobs Romans wouldn't do, and the barbarians sacked Rome?


dek wrote:
hablo espanol


You're drawing the wrong connection. It wasn't that the barbarians they let in sacked Rome, what put them in that position in the first place was complex social changes in Rome weakened the Roman state and economy, so they couldn't afford military and infrastructural upkeep.

The Roman legions were at their height towards the middle of the Imperial period, but had to be scaled back as the economy weakened. They replaced the classic Marian legion with the "manipular" legion, and replaced high-quality segmented armor with more economical variants that provided inferior protection. But they could have avoided having to make those cutbacks if they had cut military spending and focused on the economy earlier on. One of the curious themes of Roman history is "all we have is a hammer, everything is a nail" - how having military might often started conflicts that could have been avoided, rather than preventing them.

What drove this economic weakness was partly that Rome ceased to be a manufacturer of crops and goods because of slave labor and cheap imports, partly that Roman military protection and taxation made their allies more attractive economically than Rome itself, and partly that the Romans themselves became less ambitious and hardworking when it became more effective to find a way up doing petty administrative tasks like being an aedile somewhere or kissing the emperor's ass and becoming an augustale rather than doing something for the Roman state and people.


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