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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:16 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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ZOMG USATODAY

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Accountants, nurses, chemists, surveyors, cooks, clerks and janitors


To what extent do you think those are the people who keep the wheels of government turning or how much tax money is spent on them?

Engineers, doctors, lawyers, scientists...?

Also note that most of those who fit those classifications are unaffected by the cuts because - you guessed it - they're paramilitary.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:20 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu wrote:
Usdk wrote:
ever been to the post office? fuck gov't employees.


Soldiers are government employees too.

But yeah, I have. And I'm willing to bet, way more than you. (Seriously. As in hundreds of times more.) On average it's a positive and professional experience.

Then you consider they get paid substantially less than they would with comparable hours, skills and performance in private industry.

I mean, they'll deliver a letter, anywhere in the US, for under half a dollar, and anywhere in the world for a few bucks. Reliability is basically 100%. How can anyone complain about that?



1: I understand that soldiers are gov't employees. As much as you want me to be, I'm not a simpleton. Good friend of mine is an ex marine. He did the math, and when he was working 10-14 hour days he was only making a little over minimum wage. AND getting shot at.

2: Only one person at the post office I frequent and NO ONE at the DMV would be worth dealing with if i didn't absolutely have to.

3: If by comparable hours you mean getting every holiday on the calendar off, then sure. Not to mention that for the most part they make more money than private sector jobs, and in this economy likely have better benefits.

4: The POST OFFICE delivers those letters across country. Then, because its a shitty business model for charging so little, the gov't dumps money into the post office so that it can stay afloat. Which means WE dump money into it. FedEX and UPS don't need that help, and are just as good, if not better.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:27 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
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Jubbergun wrote:
Aestu wrote:
Any given field, you'll earn more in private industry than government with the same experience and credentials. Except the military, where even a dropout can earn high five digits.


Wrong.


Aestu said "with the same experience and credentials". The article you linked to didn't adjust for those, and studies that do tend to support his assertion.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:29 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Usdk wrote:
1: I understand that soldiers are gov't employees. As much as you want me to be, I'm not a simpleton. Good friend of mine is an ex marine. He did the math, and when he was working 10-14 hour days he was only making a little over minimum wage. AND getting shot at.


I'd like to see that math.

Most soldiers (and others who somehow make money off the military budget) never get shot at. You can sit your ass in Korea or Poland or on a carrier or fly a cargo plane around or patrol around some base in some godforsaken Midwestern crossroad and get paid all the same. And even if you are getting shot at, that's a different question than whether the war is appropriate or necessary - whether taxpayers are getting their money's worth.

You can ferry papers around the Pentagon or build rockets that don't work or do some other sort of lame contract work and get paid an insane amount for it because God forbid anyone question touch the military budget.

There are many civil professions that don't pay well - driving a truck down I-80, mining coal, even farming or driving a taxi - that are very dangerous, and you don't get a medal when you fall from a bridge or get a chemical burn or die in a gas explosion or get cut in half by a machine.

My point is, the reason our budget is bloated is that Americans aren't willing to slaughter the sacred cows, whether it's entitlement programs or the military. So instead we get this BS that does nothing.

Quote:
3: If by comparable hours you mean getting every holiday on the calendar off, then sure. Not to mention that for the most part they make more money than private sector jobs, and in this economy likely have better benefits.

4: The POST OFFICE delivers those letters across country. Then, because its a shitty business model for charging so little, the gov't dumps money into the post office so that it can stay afloat. Which means WE dump money into it. FedEX and UPS don't need that help, and are just as good, if not better.


FedEx and UPS are both more expensive due to profit margin and they don't do letter delivery. They are also less idiot proof. I'm not an idiot, but USPS materials are WAY more user friendly.

The "govt dumps money into USPS bit" is a myth. They're financially independent. They don't get handouts from the government; revenues pay expenses year after year.

But really, who can complain about the details? It's a good system and they are more reliable than Verizon or American Airlines or pretty much any private company I can think of.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:37 pm  
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Feckless Fool
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Jubbergun wrote:
The problem with that thinking is that the scale we're talking about is a direct result of drops and buckets, not waves and tides.

Nothing can be seriously done about the problem until we have some people willing to slaughter some sacred cows.

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why dont we just cook em and have a nice bacon cheeseburger on passover?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:37 pm  
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I hope this doesn't affect the job I have lined up when I graduate in May :(


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:46 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I would happily slash the military budget.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:48 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
ZOMG USATODAY

Sorry, I forgot the BBC is the only source for information on the planet.

Aestu wrote:
Quote:
Accountants, nurses, chemists, surveyors, cooks, clerks and janitors


To what extent do you think those are the people who keep the wheels of government turning or how much tax money is spent on them?

Engineers, doctors, lawyers, scientists...?

Also note that most of those who fit those classifications are unaffected by the cuts because - you guessed it - they're paramilitary.


According to the article, 8 out of 10 positions pay more in the federal sector, the ones you seem to take exception to (and I'd like to see the wheels move without janitors to clean up after them), are merely examples. I'm sorry that the idea that positions where a person could potentially be shot at and/or blown up demand more money seems unreasonable to you.

Laelia wrote:
Jubbergun wrote:
Aestu wrote:
Any given field, you'll earn more in private industry than government with the same experience and credentials. Except the military, where even a dropout can earn high five digits.


Wrong.


Aestu said "with the same experience and credentials". The article you linked to didn't adjust for those, and studies that do tend to support his assertion.


I could easily find other legitimate studies that say otherwise.

I probably won't find them at the BBC, though.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:51 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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ZOMG JUBBER YOU LINKED A CONSERVATIVE THINK TANK STUDY!!!

Also, for Aestu... USD said his friend was getting shot at. He wasn't saying all marines and soldiers were getting shot at.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:52 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I seriously doubt the BBC has any articles on how much US gov't employees get paid, but who knows?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:53 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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So you follow up an article from a biased and sophomoric source, with an article from a right-wing special interest lobby?

As in, they get paid to advance their version of reality.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:13 pm  
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Quote:
legitimate

Quote:
Heritage.org

lol


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:23 pm  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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It's easier to laugh off sources than deal with reality.

If you want to pass off a news organization as trite because they print information you don't like, that's your business, it doesn't make the information inaccurate or irrelevant.

If you want to disregard studies done by people because you disagree with their stated views (not even sure that you know what the stated views of Heritage are, but I grant the benefit of the doubt), instead of examining the information presented, the same policy applies.

If you want to say that with benefits and a virtual guarantee you'll never be fired for any reason that government jobs are somehow a bad deal compared to the private sector, you're just being daft.

Reality doesn't have "versions." That which is, simply is, whether you have the capacity to properly perceive it or not.

Your Pal,
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:33 pm  
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Jubbergun wrote:
I could easily find other legitimate studies that say otherwise.

I probably won't find them at the BBC, though.


That seems to be a thorough study, although you could probably argue that there are other characteristics they didn't control for (eg. security clearances). However, it's only looking at the federal workforce (the paper I linked was state and local governments), and they also find that many highly-skilled government employees are paid at or below market rates. Aestu's original point may have been over-broad in saying "any given field", but it's also not the case that government employees are all overpaid.

Quote:
It's easier to laugh off sources than deal with reality.

If you want to pass off a news organization as trite because they print information you don't like, that's your business, it doesn't make the information inaccurate or irrelevant.

If you want to disregard studies done by people because you disagree with their stated views (not even sure that you know what the stated views of Heritage are, but I grant the benefit of the doubt), instead of examining the information presented, the same policy applies.


I agree with you, but the irony of this coming from you is astounding. I'll remember this the next time we debate global warming :P


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:43 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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its hard to get undenable unarguable proof, because everyone has something to gain.


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