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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:05 am  
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Jushiro wrote:
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in b4 'but but but but you NEED an M1A1 Abrams tank and surface to air missiles for deer hunting and home defense!!1one'


You guys should try Britain's gun control laws.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:07 am  
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Eturnalshift wrote:
This is not true. I can secure my weapons in a bed-side safe that opens with the swipe of a finger. The whole process takes a second and that second is all that stands between me arming myself when I hear a suspect noise in the house.


Are you always by your bed?
Are you always sleeping with one eye open?
Do you do a quick-draw whenever you hear a bird land on the roof?
Do you really think anyone who doesn't do this is living a more at-risk life?
Furthermore, your entire behavior is based on the assumption that you and your room are the object of this putative intruder. Why? Why would anyone make a point of engaging you?

Eturnalshift wrote:
You're assuming the only weapon I have is bed-side. Without small children in the house I can leave weapons laying in all sorts of places, despite what you say about needing to secure them all. Fact is, regardless of where I am in the house, I could be close to a loaded weapon.


The overwhelming majority of people don't do this and get by fine. If you're living a lifestyle that reflects outrageous fears that others aren't prone to, that's a sign there's something wrong with you.

Eturnalshift wrote:
The over-arching truth to this all is if I had no weapons in the house I'd be less safe in the event of a home invasion than if I had one, because there is still the chance that I would be near that single weapon... and if I didn't have a weapon, well, I'd be a sitting duck at my aggressors mercy.


"Aggressor"...why? Why would anyone commit aggression against YOU?

Eturnalshift wrote:
Even if you were to disarm an entire country gun violence wouldn't drop to zero because the people who are using the guns for malicious reasons are likely to be criminals, and criminals don't play by the same rules. I like using Washington DC as an example - they've had gun bans for decades now but there are still an outrageous number of gun-related crimes in the city. Why? Criminals don't follow the law. "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." I'm almost positive I'd never turn my gun on a person unless I'm truly threatened... so, until that day comes, my guns will sit idle and ready. Should I be disadvantaged when it comes to saving me or my families life just because you, or someone else thinks I might do harm to someone else without provocation?

Moot argument. It works in practice. What we have doesn't. If you doubt this go look at Columbia or Mexico or Ireland or Russia or any other country that has had or continues to have violence issues. No one seriously suggests in any country but America that weapons are the answer, and problems have invariably gotten better when weapons are traded in.

Eturnalshift wrote:
Your argument leaves room for armed home invasions to happen and for that reason I'll continue to arm myself. By your own admission, they do happen. As for why would someone want to invade my home? Why not? Maybe they think I'm an easy target because they're hoping I don't have a gun? Maybe they've been stealing mail from my mailbox and found out I'm financially comfortable, although I don't live in the most up-scale community? Maybe someone I know mentioned something about all the toys I have in my house? inb4 "Malcom X sedz..."


"Why not"? Easy target for what? You really think someone might be stealing your mail? Why yours? How often do you even think that occurs? (it's very rare for the same reason counterfeiting is rare, which is that it's one of those crimes the government takes extremely seriously and goes all Gestapo on perpetrators)

Again...it just doesn't happen. Most people don't live in fear and they get by fine.

Eturnalshift wrote:
The world is a scary place and it's full of scary people. Many of these people, for no apparent reason, can snap and have a gun poined at the back of your head without warning. They don't care about my life or the value I place on it... almost like I'm simply human filler to them. Forgive me if I appear weak to you, but when it comes to the world and the people in it, I'd rather arm myself and have a fighting chance rather than being the one staring down a barrel of a gun with no way to defend myself. Without my morbid fascination, I could be dead, my wife could be raped and my son could be gutted and used to transport drugs across the border. Yea, not likely... but, it could happen. Should either of us be faced with that day I'll be more prepared to defend myself than you would be... and I'm fine with that.


OK, so while you're at it, dig an atomic bomb shelter in your backyard, stockpile six months' worth of MREs, several months' worth of antibiotics, have on hand antidotes for all known poisons and neurotoxins, and while you're at it own a full library of technical manuals and blueprints detailing how to build infrastructure from rocks...you know, just in case nuclear war breaks out with China Russia, or the EU, or the Sun's photosphere erupts and all electronics get instantly fried, or there's a NBC attack.

All of which are theoretically possible.

Yes, if you live life as a slave to your fear, you are weak.

What you're really looking for is an illusion of control. It's an illusion for the same reason that all those other things I described are also illusions of control: should the unthinkable happen, random circumstance and common sense is infinitely more likely to determine outcome than preparations which are really just self-fulfilling prophecies.

Example: Duck n' Cover. Does anyone with a grain of common sense really think that a flimsy plywood desk is going to save some kid's life when he's in the way of a multi-megaton nuclear blast? No, it's just an irrational response to fear, a need for the illusion of control.

Another example: you have a gun. Classic case of hammer and nail, you will feel inclined to use it. What if you make an error of judgement and shoot a family member due to the sort of lapses that can affect anyone? What if the presence of a weapon incites the other party to fear or violence, when its absence would have meant the situation resolved peacefully, and your family winds up dead?

It is human nature that if provided with the means of violence, people will find a pretext for which to use them. The corollary of maintaining weapons for defense is that you've already decided that's the approach appropriate to solving your problems - which is itself more likely than anything else to cause you and your family physical harm.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:12 am  
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is it sad i knew nothing about this until this morning, and that's only because i saw it when checking my e-mail? lolol
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:13 am  
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Eturnalshift wrote:
It says you're an idiot and you're automatically going to assume the worst of the Tea Party because you have some chip on your shoulder. Also, bigot/racist/xenophobe/"nice google"/etc.

Hurdurrr

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But it's Ok for the President to refer to Republicans and his critics as enemies that need to be punished?

No, it isn't. Also, I wouldn't really call having slogans such as "Don't Retreat, Reload!", "Voting from the Rooftops", and bringing loaded guns to rallies the same as calling people "enemies" (I'd really like a source on Obama actually saying that Republicans needed to be "punished", btw.
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Both sides have their rhetoric and their mouth-pieces that say shit that not everyone agrees with. My problem is you only think the Right is guilty of this kind of shit...

I never said that. There were plenty of Bush = Hitler posters circa 2004, but Republicans weren't getting their offices vandalized or getting shot back then.

Its still up in the air whether or not this is a tea partier or even if it was for political reasons (which it probably was), but I don't think its too unreasonable to think that the rhetoric should calm down.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:15 am  
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Henq wrote:
To give eturnal some credit here, the biometric scanning bed safe is a responsible option if you must own a gun for that reason. Kudos for that certainly.


I didn't read your post before making my more long-winded and largely redundant response, lol.

I am very wary of biometric systems. I see them as a false certainty. Anyone really determined to hack them could in theory just do so at the hardware level, and their complexity means there's that much more that can go wrong. I personally am very conservative, and I think "trick" locks and such are the most effective way to secure sensitive items.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:29 am  
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Aestu wrote:

I didn't read your post before making my more long-winded and largely redundant response, lol.

I am very wary of biometric systems. I see them as a false certainty. Anyone really determined to hack them could in theory just do so at the hardware level, and their complexity means there's that much more that can go wrong. I personally am very conservative, and I think "trick" locks and such are the most effective way to secure sensitive items.


Well obviously the quickest way past any electronic lock system is just to smash it and pry open the door ( assuming you have the tool for the job). There are some biometric systems that are quite good and some that are poor. I actually did some research at a previous job that involved trying to break/hack/trick bio systems. The easiest was voice and face. However, a friend of mine went back to get his thesis master's degree (opted out the first time) and is doing it on the security and validity of DNA sample biometric security systems. I have read a couple pages and it's pretty interesting. It will be published when he is finished. I can pass along a link when it's done if you like.

I think that the problem in the scenario eturnal mentioned is not necessarily that someone could hack his bio safe box and open it themselves, but it is highly more likely that the case would simply not work. Finger print scanner can be smudged. Power could be dead. Or just a very general software error.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:34 am  
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Aestu wrote:
Are you always by your bed?
Are you always sleeping with one eye open?
Do you do a quick-draw whenever you hear a bird land on the roof?
Do you really think anyone who doesn't do this is living a more at-risk life?
Furthermore, your entire behavior is based on the assumption that you and your room are the object of this putative intruder. Why? Why would anyone make a point of engaging you?

1) Not always, but I am for about 6-8 hours each night when it's dark inside and somewhat dark outside my house.
2) I'm a light sleeper.
3) No. I'm sure the risk of home invasion is the same for almost anyone. The point isn't who is at higher risk... it's who is more capable of defending themselves should it happen to them.
4) I know where the money is. I know how to get in the safe. I know where the care keys are. Plus, the person may not engage me by their own will... I might engage them first by seeing who might be in my house making off with my stuff.

Quote:
The overwhelming majority of people don't do this and get by fine. If you're living a lifestyle that reflects outrageous fears that others aren't prone to, that's a sign there's something wrong with you.

Good. I'm not concerned with what statistics say is best for the majority of people - I'm concerned about what is best for me... and what is best for me clearly isn't what's best for you. A home invasion can happen to anyone. I'm just simply readying myself to protect myself and my family if I'm ever in that unfortunate situation.

Quote:
"Aggressor"...why? Why would anyone commit aggression against YOU?

Why would anyone want to commit aggression against anyone else? It happens and you're stupid to think it can't happen to you. Like I said before, I'd rather be prepared and able to defend myself.

Quote:
Moot argument. It works in practice. What we have doesn't.

How do you protect the normal citizen against individuals who feel they're above the law and come at them when they're incapable of protecting themselves?
Quote:
"Why not"? Easy target for what? You really think someone might be stealing your mail? Why yours? How often do you even think that occurs?

Wait a second... didn't you say criminals stake out their targets? Do you think this involves some guys sitting across from your house for weeks on end in a utility van as they log when the family leaves to work? Mail has a lot of important information, Aestu. It's not hard for a criminal to drive through a neighborhood jacking mail from some mailboxes. With the mail they could find out how much money you have, your bank account information, your purchases, your schedule, your age, etc. With this information, they could determine which targets are 'high value' enough to risk everything on. I was alerted to this happening a couple years back in Fairfax County, VA in one of the neighborhoods there. Since it happened there - it can happen anywhere... and often without anyone knowing.

It does happen. Just because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't, or can't, happen to others.

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Yes, if you live life as a slave to your fear, you are weak.

I'm a slave to fear for protecting myself and my family? Were you and your family not slaves to fear when you decided it would be best to following the teachings of Malcom X and augment your property to make it less appealing to criminals? BRB - Selling my guns because Aestu said I'm weak lololol?

Henq wrote:
Don't you think owning a gun for protection against a home invasion...makes you more paranoid to home invasions? Thus you are quicker to draw out your weapon if you hear any noise in your house...including if it's your niece getting some ice cream or something? Sure your response will be that being trained to correctly and quickly identify the noise in your house is necessary in your scenario of owning the gun and using it for protection...but let's talk about the general gun owning population? Do you think everyone is qualified to make that split second decision?

Paranoid... sure? Prepared... hell yea. Just because you have a gun doesn't make you immune to the law. If a gun owner accidently kill someone then they have to face the consequences. It's a chance a gun-owner takes.

As far as being able to make a split-second decision... I think people are more equipped for that than you think. Consider your situation... you and your finance are laying in bed and you hear someone in the kitchen. You wake up. You look to your side and see your woman is sleeping soundly. You grab your gun. You creep to the kitchen.

At this point you know it's not you or your fiancée... so, someone you don't know is in your kitchen and you don't know if they're armed or not. You have a couple options available. You could ask, "Who's there?"... you could turn on a light to identify the person in the kitchen. You could tell them you're armed and that they have to immediately leave. You could use the flashlight attachment on your gun to see if the person should be there or not. I'm not advocating that if you hear a noise in your house you grab the nearest shotgun and start peppering every corner until you hear a scream. You have to be smart... but, in this situation... you don't really own a gun...

You get to the kitchen and turn on the light and say, "Who's there?" Some guy is standing there with a gun. He grabs you, tells you to give him your valuables. You take him to your safe or whatever... you open it, he takes what he wants and shoots you in the head. Your fiancée hears the gunshot and screams, alerting the criminal someone else is in the house. He runs to where he thinks the scream came from and he finds your girl half-dressed in bed frantically trying to dial 9-11. He pistol whips her to the bed, rapes her, skull-fucks her and then puts a bullet in the back of her head.


Last edited by Eturnalshift on Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:35 am  
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Henq wrote:
Well obviously the quickest way past any electronic lock system is just to smash it and pry open the door ( assuming you have the tool for the job).

I'd think it would be to put a gun to someone's head and force someone to open the door that way, considering its a very high-tech safe and people that are robbing your house would be VERY interested to see why you've kept something so secure.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:49 am  
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@Eturnal : I get what you are saying man. It makes sense in a paranoid sort of way. What if robots broke into your house to rob and kill you and your guns were useless? What if the guy that broke in was wearing a full suit of body armor?

There are a lot of assumptions that would have to occur for someone to get into the house that already has a regular alarm system that repeats directly to the police department in town. If they got passed that, were armed, broke into the house and wanted to steal my things, kill me, rape my fiancee and kill her...yes I am utterly defenseless.

Does that bother me? No.
Just like I do not drive down the road fearing for my life that someone will swerve from oncoming traffic into me and kill me.

I choose not to live my life in fear...or in other words...I choose not to live my life worrying and adjusting to things that MIGHT happen (less than .05% chance).
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:00 am  
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Instead of letting this side-track into some moronic hysteria about how you'd be stupid to own a gun (this coming from a group of people who haven't experienced the sort of situations that demonstrate to you how long a second can be and how much can happen in it), I'll instead link and repost the only thoughtful piece I've read on the shooting so far:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... rialPage_h

WSJ wrote:
On all available evidence, Jared Lee Loughner is a mentally disturbed man who targeted Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and anyone near her in Tucson on Saturday because she was prominent and they were tragically accessible. He joins Sirhan Sirhan, John Hinckley Jr. and many others whose derangement led them to horrible acts of violence. Whatever confused political motives he expressed seem merely to be part of the maelstrom of his mental sickness.

In a better world, no one would attempt to exploit his madness for political gain. We would instead focus on the contributions of Ms. Giffords, by all accounts a laudable public servant. We would celebrate the lives of the other victims, and we would praise the survivors who intervened to tackle Mr. Loughner and disarm him before he could kill others—like 74-year-old retiree Bill Badger, who was grazed in the head by a bullet before helping to restrain the shooter.

But the shooting news had barely hit the wires on Saturday before the media's instant psychoanalysis put the American body politic on the couch instead of Mr. Loughner. "Bloodshed Puts New Focus on Vitriol in Politics," declared a story in the New York Times, which focused primarily on the tea party and Sarah Palin in the context of mass murder. The story even hauled in opposition to health-care reform.

Politico, the Beltway website, chimed in by quoting a "veteran Democratic operative" advising the White House "to deftly pin this on the tea partiers," just as "the Clinton White House deftly pinned the Oklahoma City bombing on the militia and anti-government people" in 1995.

Shouldn't a publication insist that someone urging the exploitation of murder at least put his name on the record? The same goes for the anonymous Republican Senator quoted by Politico denouncing "town halls and cable TV and talk radio" in relation to Mr. Loughner.

Consider the kind of rhetoric that is being implicated as incendiary and beyond the pale. Mrs. Palin is being scored for having put contested Congressional seats such as Ms. Giffords's in cross hairs on her website before the last election. This is supposed to be an incitement to murder?

At least one left-wing site also put Ms. Giffords on such a "target" list because she is one of the Blue Dog Democrats who doesn't vote the party line. (Jubber Note: Would have been nice--though contrary to the purpose of the piece--to name the offender.) And yesterday right-wing websites were reprising this or that quote from Democrats and even President Obama invoking some martial or weapons metaphor to suggest they are as culpable. This is as offensive as the blame-Republican implications in the New York Times.

Judging from Mr. Loughner's own website, his mind was a mess of conspiracy theories, influenced by tracts like "Mein Kampf" and the "Communist Manifesto." His main complaint about government seems to be that he believes it is trying to control American "grammar." Yet this becomes an excuse for the media to throw him in with the tea partiers as "anti-government."

Perhaps we will learn more as the investigation unfolds. But so far this case couldn't be more different than that of Nidal Hasan, the Fort Hood killer who was motivated by Islamist hatred of America. Yet it is notable that the press corps was more restrained in identifying Major Hasan's Islamist role models than in immediately stretching to link Mr. Loughner with American politicians who universally denounce such violence.

Ponder the implication of this. A deranged soul shoots a public figure and we are supposed to change our political discourse and rule certain people and opinions out of bounds based on whatever incoherent ramblings Mr. Loughner published on his website?

Every two years we hold elections so that sane Americans can make a judgment on the policies of President Obama, John Boehner, tea party candidates and so on. But even though the people have recently had their say, in a typically raucous but entirely nonviolent fashion, we are supposed to put that aside and assess what a murderer with a mental illness has to tell us about the state of American politics, government and our national dialogue.

This line of argument is itself an attack on democratic discourse, and it is amazing that it even needs to be rebutted. Taking such an argument seriously will only encourage more crazy people to believe they can trigger a national soul-searching if they shoot at a political target. We should denounce the murders and the murderer, rather than doing him the honor of suggesting that his violence flows in any explainable fashion from democratic debate.

President Obama does have an opportunity here, but it is not to link—"deftly" or otherwise—his political opponents to Mr. Loughner. This would only further poison and polarize our public debate. Mr. Obama can lift the level of public discourse by explaining the reality of Mr. Loughner's illness and calling out those on the right and left who want to blame the other side for murder. That would be a genuinely Presidential act of leadership, and it would have the added advantage of being honest about the murders in Tucson.


The TL;DR: You're all fucking stupid because this isn't about guns or politics. It was about some apeshit crazy motherfucker's cry for attention. Having this conversation as if what he did was in any way rational and had any meaning not only gives this piece of shit what he wants, it encourages the next fucktard waiting in the wings to go for his fifteen minutes of fame.

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Last edited by Jubbergun on Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:01 am  
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inb4 WSJ is owned by Rupert Murdoch so it's not a credible source hurrdurr
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:15 am  
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Is it really too hard to just say that putting crosshairs over congressional districts, repeated talk of "second amendment legislation", "death panels", and bringing loaded guns to opposing party's political rallies isn't a good idea and should be toned down a bit?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:19 am  
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Also, what is Canada's gun laws...?



I'm not going to get into the debate, but if you're curious our guns laws work like this:

Anyone (or almost anyone, I don't know if there are restrictions on convicted felons etc.) can buy and possess a non-automatic rifle or shotgun after passing a basic firearms safety course and getting a license. Handguns require a further safety course and license, and I think there is some discretion on the part of the licensing authority on who they give these licenses to. They can only be kept in their owner's house or business unless you have another license to transport them to other places (eg. a shooting range), and they have to be transported in a locked container, unloaded and with a trigger lock. Automatic weapons and large magazines are generally restricted to police and military.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:30 am  
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Henq wrote:
@Eturnal : I get what you are saying man. It makes sense in a paranoid sort of way. What if robots broke into your house to rob and kill you and your guns were useless? What if the guy that broke in was wearing a full suit of body armor?

Robots aren't a serious consideration, and even the scary ones in movies get damaged being shot up. Body armor is very expensive, and while you might see it on drug/gun runners working for cartels, the average home invader wouldn't bother invading your home if he/she/it had the cash for black market body armor...that is leaving aside that vests don't stop head-shots.

Henq wrote:
There are a lot of assumptions that would have to occur for someone to get into the house that already has a regular alarm system that repeats directly to the police department in town. If they got passed that, were armed, broke into the house and wanted to steal my things, kill me, rape my fiancee and kill her...yes I am utterly defenseless.

Most alarms systems aren't directly tied to the police, they go through a call center operated by whoever services your alarm contract. Most of these are very good, but a lot can happen in 30 seconds, which is roughly the amount of time that will lapse between an alarm trip and your provider contacting the police/fire/rescue. A lot more can happen during whatever amount of time lapses between the call from your provider and the police actually arriving.

I don't own any guns (I like blunt force trauma and have a bat), but my house is full of them. There is one person in my house who is armed pretty much the whole time he's here. My son has been educated about not messing with guns without adult supervision, and the usual boundaries of "this is not your/my space so stay the fuck out" apply.

Henq wrote:
Does that bother me? No.
Just like I do not drive down the road fearing for my life that someone will swerve from oncoming traffic into me and kill me.

I choose not to live my life in fear...or in other words...I choose not to live my life worrying and adjusting to things that MIGHT happen (less than .05% chance).


It's not just about fear of what-if. It's about self-reliance, and not expecting someone else to magically appearing out of thin air to do the heavy lifting. There are still a lot of people who "cling to their God and gun," as our President might say. I grew up around guns. I live around guns. They're as ordinary to me (and a lot of other people) as the TV remote. I think some of you have this repulsed reaction because the idea of guns, because you have no interaction with them, is the same as you'd have if someone suggested you sleep with a bed full of poisonous adders.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:46 am  
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Mns wrote:
Is it really too hard to just say that putting crosshairs over congressional districts, repeated talk of "second amendment legislation", "death panels", and bringing loaded guns to opposing party's political rallies isn't a good idea and should be toned down a bit?


It is when the implication is that "the rhetoric," and by extension those that hold the views supported by "the rhetoric," is more responsible for this tragedy than the whack-job that pulled the trigger. If you go look at Nutter-Butter's youtube posting (if they haven't pulled it yet), he doesn't say anything you could even remotely link to the Tea Party, Sarah Palin, elections, the 2nd amendment, or health care. It was an insane disjointed manifesto about mind control and creating a new currency.

It is doubly hard to "just say that" given that when it's pointed out that similar rhetoric comes from the side of the aisle closest to your views, and from the President no less, your response is disbelief and calls for a link. If you can't admit you farted and have to blame it on the dog, don't get all high and mighty when you think someone else is doing the same thing.

What if, and it's a big pointless if by the reasoning of my previous post, it does turn out he was motivated by a website with crosshairs...but it turns out to be one put out by a group like moveon.org? Are we still going to hear a bunch of squealing about "the tone" or the "the rhetoric," if it turns out to be 'your guys,' or are we going hear how fucking retarded people are that they don't understand metaphor and go on a shooting spree? You'll forgive me if past experience leads me to believe that it will be "dumb ass don't get metaphor, LoL."

Again, this is pointless, because this is just some nut who was completely out of touch with reality, and all these "it's your/their/his/her fault he did it" arguments do nothing but try to assign blame away from where it belongs: some crazy fuck. It does nothing but legitimize the crazy and encourage the next one(s) by letting them know they'll get the attention they craze for themselvesy/their views.

Your Pal,
Jubber


AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste
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