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Also worth pointing out, NY, CA and MA (and several other wealthy states) are solidly Democrat, but much of the South is poor, religious and Republican. Wealthy left-leaning states subsidize those states by contributing more in federal taxation than they get back in federal spending (in poor states, including VA/WV, it's the opposite).

Millions of poor Southerners on welfare or otherwise reliant on the Feds vote Republican, usually out of ignorance or religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_ta ... g_by_state



If you look at the entire list, you'll see that the states that get the most from the Feds and contribute the least are solidly GOP; the states that contribute the most and get the least back are Democrat.

Your state is GOP, but if it fell into the ocean, not only would Obama's chance of winning the election be increased, but the federal deficit would be substantially less.

In essence, each citizen of your state (including you personally) is supported by 2-3 Californians, New Yorkers, etc.
Yet your state is convinced that it 'doesn't need' the government.

Why do you think that is, Eturnal? How do you reconcile this with Romney's 47-47 claim?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I would not have guess ecological concerns as high as they are for you, and I would have picked technological sophistication to be higher. The other concrete answers are more or less where I had you pegged, but "a moral life must be moral" makes no sense.

Unfortunately, though I feel like my views lean right, and yours lean left, but none of them will ever be adressed to either of our satisfactions because the government seems happy with the status quo.

Remember that my background is history, not science - and I'm Jewish. I take the long-term view of things, and like most people who look to history for answers, I tend to see problems and solutions in social terms.

That's the thing you really notice in reading ancient books - the ancients always saw problems as moral in nature, never material. They didn't invent advanced technology because it didn't occur to them to do so. So they progressed in other ways - philosophy, law, government.

I respect other cultures, but I oppose moral nihilism. As I've aged, I've come to understand the importance of a moral code in making life decent. I firmly believe that there have to be ground rules in society, more profound than just not killing other people and taking their stuff.



Right, okay. But what I'm getting at is: how do our values drive us left vs right? What do people who lean left think is important? What do people who lean right think is important?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Don't take this thread to PM! Nobody HAS to read it, and those of us who do can really gain something out of it. I for one am learning a lot about the other side's views. It doesn't have to "convince" anyone to change their vote, but for me personally, these kinds of threads show me that Republicans actually don't desire the downfall of our nation, as their actions seemed to allude to.

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If we judged each other by who we voted for, I would hate you. I'd like to think that we're all smarter than that.

Those two statements are not entirely compatible.



Stalling was the right thing to do. There's no point in having a "debt ceiling" if you're just going to raise the bar every time you hit the limit.

I saw bits of the Romney video on The Daily Show. Apparently, being honest makes you a bad person. The only thing Romney is wrong about as far as his "we're never going to get these people's votes" bit was that he's assuming that a person who doesn't pay any income taxes isn't working. There is definitely a contingent of citizens in our country who are only interested in what they can milk out of government...and they're not all poor, unemployed people. We were treated to the gimme-gimme types at the democrat's own convention when they let Sandra "get your hands off my womb...but before you pop that last finger out, make sure you leave me some goodies on the nightstand" Fluke.

Romney is also only wrong when he's says "it would be easier if I were Latino" because he's making the mistake of thinking that how people are going to vote should be determined by their race. I think it's goofy to say there was anything wrong with that line when we know that for a lot of people the reason to vote for our current president was his race. I think the Latino vote is going to continue to be split between both parties, much to the benefit of Latinos. If the black vote were up for grabs, you'd see republicans paying more attention to that community's issues. Unfortunately, the black vote overwhelmingly goes to democrats...90%+ in most cases, which leads to republicans having little interest in doing anything for a group that gives them no support.

I'm voting for Romney only because I'm not giving President Obama the chance to make any more court appointments. He couldn't be any more of a train wreck than the train wreck I've been watching for the last few years. It's a choice between a douche and a turd sandwich, but I've already picked the lesser evil, so turd sandwich it is.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

This one video game...with a bunch of really smart protagonists at the booth...

(I've been playing it more lately. Sadly, I still find it way more fun than any games currently on the market. It really is amazing. You should try it, Fanta. It would help you appreciate these convos more.)

Go ahead, Mr Tuhl...

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Because SCOTUS really needs another Clarence Thomas.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

I was thinking more along the lines of not needing another Kagan or O'Connor, but fair enough.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmium



Getting in the way when you don't have any better ideas is retarded in any setting.

During the Clinton years, the GOP shut down government even during budgets that were in the black. Therefore, it is not logical to believe that the debt was actually their motivation for doing the same thing again.



I'm not convinced he's being honest.

His comments are totally out of whack with the electoral reality he's working with day-to-day, and he has to know that. Even he knows that the majority of the people voting Democrat are not on welfare, and that many who vote GOP are. See the federal spending/party affiliation chart I linked above.

In doing what he does, he has to have a much more complex view of things than what he said. What he said is how voters think, it's not how any politician thinks. Leading me to believe that the content was manufactured for the benefit of voters.



Blacks don't vote GOP because their ideology makes no sense for them. Blacks know well enough the "turds to gold" philosophy just doesn't work in the real world because unlike whites, having lived in a vacuum, they know what air tastes like.



Of all the reasons one might give to not vote for Obama, this is a pretty damn good one. That said, I still don't agree that Romney is the lesser of the two dbags. He is a thoroughly dishonest and disloyal American, and whether he's serious about his plans or not, his policies will ruin this country. Fluke and company really can't do that.

That said, I'm simply not voting, and even were Romney not stealing the election, it wouldn't make a difference, the status quo is doomed within our lifetime and no one can foresee what will happen next.

I personally believe we are headed for the world of Soylent Green (to really appreciate what I mean you would have to watch the movie, not just the people eating scene).

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

There were better ideas, namely quit spending more money than the government takes in, which is why we borrow in the first place. Spending cuts were one of the conditions republicans demanded in exchange for a raise in the debt ceiling. Unfortunately, in an environment where not allowing a budget to grow is considered a cut, we're probably not going to see the federal budget shrink.



Just because he's wrong doesn't mean he not being honest. In another thread I said that Islam was the world's largest religion...I really thought it had outpaced Christianity years ago. I double-checked and I was wrong. You can definitely say something untrue without being dishonest.



Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Are republicans totally out-of-touch with the black vote because they never get it and don't bother to chase it, or do republicans never get the black vote and don't bother to chase it because they're totally out-of-touch with it?

Hardship isn't unique to blacks, and since underclass whites are less likely to move up because they are not only deprived of advantages like affirmative action, but also disproportionately bear the cost of those advantages.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

On what?

Should the government just do what private industry does and arbitrarily hike prices (taxes) whenever it needs more money?



It's not a question of rectitude, it's that what he's saying is unreal in its simplicity.


There's quite a bit of truth to this, especially in education and government.

But AA, like everything else, operates within the framework of our society and mostly benefits white women and a far smaller number of blacks attached to some sort of patronage. To blacks from hard backgrounds - inner city and poor rural communities, especially those who are very black, AA is just a phrase that doesn't translate into any real-world leverage. Which is why it sucks, period.



The chicken. LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act into law. The GOP tried to stop it and failed. Then Ronald Reagan smiled into office on visions of 1950s movies with no Negroes and that was that.

Look at Reagan from a black person's point of view.

His whole sell was talking about "restoring America's greatness" and "the good old days". Wtf does that mean to a black person? The good old days before the Civil Rights Act? The 1950s America they were excluded from? What Reagan sold really can't be divorced from a vision of a world in which blacks are conveniently absent, their problems just aren't factored into the idyllic vision. How can a black person vote for that?

Social Security etc. Blacks have always been on the bottom rungs of the employment ladder due to poverty and racism. When the export market dried up and mass automation and rapid increases in productivity made universal employment no longer possible, who got the short shrift first?

From a black man's point of view, what is he to do? You really expect him to vote politicians into office who just act as if these problems don't exist or he can turn turds to gold?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Or they could, like business does, cut expenses. There's a lot of dead weight in the bureaucracy, and everyone on this board is quick to point out that we could afford to spend less on the military.



Every person in congress that filibustered the Civil Rights Act was a democrat, from Bob Byrd of WV to J. William Fulbright of Arkansas...yet Bill Clinton, who cited Fulbright as a mentor, can call himself "the first black president" and get away with it. Of the 99 politicians that signed the Southern Manifesto all but two were democrats, yet somehow the republican party gets credit for filibustering a bill that Johnson would not have been able to get passed without republican support.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

O'Connor was a Reagan appointee.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh