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Tuhl....interested to hear your thoughts on this.

The 5th amendment protects you from having to testify if you could incriminate yourself. Pretty straight forward.


However, take this example:

I rob a liquor store, and you, Tuhl, see me leave the liquor store with a bag of cash.

You're then called to testify against me (saying that you saw me leave the liquor store with a bag of cash), but you don't want to because we're friends <3. If you said "well I was just walking around the block not doing anything, I plead the fifth" -- the judge would hold you in contempt. You wouldn't be incriminating yourself because you didn't do anything illegal (just saw me walking out of a liquor store with a bag of cash), so taking the 5th doesn't really work.


Now, this IRS lady -- before invoking the fifth amendment said that she was 100% innocent of any wrongdoing, did not break any laws.



She then went on to assert her Fifth Amendment right to not self incriminate. But if she says she's done nothing illegal, doesn't that in essence waive that right to invoke the Fifth Amendment? If she has done nothing wrong, as she states, then how does invoking the Fifth to protect herself from self-incrimination work?

http://blog.heritage.org/2013/05/24/did ... nt-rights/

No, it's not like that. The fifth amendment is good because you shouldn't have to help the court convict you of anything, and you don't. The burden of proof is on the prosecutors.

I'm just saying it fucking looks shady when someone in charge with the information THEY have at their disposal is like "nope, not talking about this, fifth amendment."

I've read more than a few columnists in the last week that don't think this was a conspiracy in the actual sense that the activities were organized or directed by anyone, but most of them think that is worse/scarier than if someone at the White House actually gave order for it to happen. Like these two paragraphs:

This may turn out to be one of those cases in which the real scandal involves what is legal, not illegal. Obama's endless demonization of his political adversaries and lack of respect for the gravity of his own office certainly aren't illegal. The media smear campaign against the Tea Party was protected by the First Amendment. And the IRS could have violated the constitutional rights of countless Americans without running afoul of any criminal statutes in the process.

The scandal here is that an agency of the federal government used its fearsome authority to benefit the party in power. If it did so unthinkingly, that is even more disturbing than a criminal conspiracy.

Basically, if the bureaucracy in DC is so attuned to the interest of the party in power (whichever party that may be) that it starts picking up queues that leads it to behaviors that are illegal, immoral, and/or unethical without being directly told to engage in such behavior, you're entering into a dangerous undiscovered country where no one is really accountable. Given all the "I didn't know" answers this week, we're probably already there. We're definitely a long way from "the buck stops here" as far as this scandal is concerned.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

More like they realized this is a gigantic non-scandal, despite their best efforts to try and pin it on Obama (McConnell got called out on Meet The Press last week, which had this witch hunt lose a lot of steam) and are just trying to milk readers by banging on the drum even louder by talking themselves in circles. No, someone being lazy by trying to corral the flood of people trying to get tax-free status (thanks to Citizens United) is not worse than the president giving orders to a neutral government body to undermine his political opponents through subterfuge.

Obama's popularity has risen in the past couple weeks despite the Republican Noise Machine going on full blast (even though its been going full blast since Obama got elected) and between McConnell getting his ass handed to him by David Gregory and leaks that republican staffers were editing Bengazhi emails to make it look like a cover-up, nobody gives a shit anymore about your fake outrage.

Its alright though, we're going to go back to the Clinton years and try to impeach Obama for no reason, because that worked so well the last time.

RETIRED.
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@Azelma: The 5th doesn't usually apply to non-defendant witnesses, unless the questioner is trying to get them to admit to wrongdoing of their own. If I saw you doing some shit and I'm questioned on the stand after taking the oath (or its equivalent), my choices are a) state what I think I remember having seen, b) not recall any details, or c) perjure myself.

As for your IRS lady, the article you linked already addressed the issues. She was compelled by subpoena, it wasn't a criminal court, and she's probably free to assert the 5th all she wants if any actual proceedings take place.

(Your linked article, amusingly, references to the fact that it disagrees with the "Dershowitz opinion." I've read more Alan Dershowitz than I'd like to remember; he's an idiot, he's frequently wrong about legal issues despite his status and position, and he's a cunt)

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This is fairly scandalous despite your wishful thinking.



Because it would be unfair to expect him to be accountable for anything since he's been given a pass for his first four years. I'm waiting to see what the second term version of "it's my predecessor's fault" is going to be. Nothing is ever President Obama's fault, and he's never responsible for anything, so I agree with you that trying to pin anything on a person like that is just silly.



If "someone being lazy" were only trying to "corral the flood of people trying to get tax-free status," why was it they somehow only managed to corral those of a certain political persuasion while opening the pens for those of a different political persuasion? The IRS's efforts against Tea Party and other conservative groups were selective. Even assuming for the sake of argument that the IRS was merely taking a nod from President Obama and others to "corral" groups seeking tax-exempt status, you fail to explain why only conservative groups were singled out for extra scrutiny. Despite your obvious distaste for Citizen's United ruling, you also fail to give any reason why a "neutral government body" would choose to ignore the law that allows these groups and their tax status and basically enforce President Obama's (and your own) preference that such groups not be allowed tax exempt status according to the letter of the law. This was nothing more or less than someone in the chain of command setting enforcement priorities that ran contrary to established law and focusing enforcement solely on groups that were at odds with the incumbent administration and its party.



I didn't realize it was OK to break the law, piss on free speech, use the power of government to silence critics, and skirt responsibility so long as it was popular. I guess I can go on that rape-and-murder spree so long as I make sure my poll numbers are up.



There's enough history for even you to realize at this point that the Clinton impeachment was justified based on perjury, and probably would have stuck if republicans weren't such a bunch of goofballs that they got hung up on a hummer from a fat chick. Despite that, no one is talking about impeaching President Obama, and I haven't yet seen even the usual over-the-top idiots (Ann Coulter comes to mind) suggest he actually ordered this or was complicit in any wrong-doing.

EDIT: So now I found someone who is saying President Obama is responsible but not really saying he ordered it.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Honestly I'm more worried about the DOJ stealing phone records at this point.

The IRS can't touch you as long as you are meticulous with your paperwork and you pay your taxes on time. Fucking with the free press? THAT is worrisome.

I still don't see that one being as big a deal since it was in allegedly done pursuit of people leaking classified information. As much as I'm tired of everyone associated with the current administration pulling the "I didn't do it" card, I even accept Holder's "not my fault" dodge since he had removed himself from the case because of his conflict of interest. Using the least accountable federal agency to intimidate your political opponents bothers me a lot more. I almost wonder how different the election might have looked had the approval process for these political groups not been tainted or if the scrutiny applied to conservative groups had been applied to all groups equally. The Benghazi thing would probably have gone away by now if the administration had just admitted some errors in judgment and say it had learned some valuable lessons and was adjusting policy in response.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

OK, so today's/this week's scrutiny of the IRS thing seems to focus on visits to the White House by the IRS chief. I'm not sure this is particularly compelling as far as building a case that the White House knew of any improprieties. "Commentary's John Steele Gordon points out that the managerial post of IRS commissioner coming over to the White House once a week on average might make sense if President Obama had been planning a big tax code restructuring," says the article, which also says that "the alibi the White House has wedded itself to is that it had to work closely with the IRS to implement ObamaCare." I don't know about you guys, but I'm of the opinion that the Affordable Care Act actually represents a big tax code restructuring since the IRS is going to be the agency tasked with enforcing most of the ACA stuff.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

We should have universal healthcare - but the Affordable Care Act was so raped and twisted by the machine that it's going to be largely ineffective and generally shitty, imo.

Congrats partisan politics!


Now everyone keep digging in and not budging while the ship goes down. MSNBC and Fox will handle the round-the-clock coverage.

I still prefer the two party system to the one party system.

The problem is term limits. Those fuckers making the laws never have to go back out into the real world to abide by those laws so long as they keep buying elections.

Please explain why we don't have term limits in place? I must have missed it in school or something.

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Probably because the legislature isn't interested in making a term limit from all the easy money and power they get.

RETIRED.
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Because it's easier to keep us divided against each other while they line their pockets than it is to find a real job that keeps them living at the level to which they have become accustomed.

It's not just me...now even the New York Time editorial board is piling on.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste