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You know, there's this theory that the JFK assassination was an accident, and what really happened was that the Florida Mafia was trying to assassinate the governor and missed.

That bullet that landed square between JFK's eyes - a projectile about a centimeter wide, across a field of several meters? - that was just a lucky miss. And all those people who were in some way involved with the events of that day who curiously disappeared or died in unfortunate circumstances within the next few months? Also all coincidence.

I mean sure it's possible. We don't really have any "proof" that JFK was actually assassinated. Nor do we have any "proof" that the theory isn't valid.

But I don't see any sane person insisting on "proof" JFK was gunned down and the whole thing wasn't a freak accident compounded by misunderstandings and convenient but accidental deaths.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

there's a difference between me saying "hrm, its convenient that guy died before having given out any incriminating evidence on that big powerful guy" and the coroner(who was obviously in on it right?) saying the guy died from what i'm guessing is natural causes.

what did the guy die of anyway? cancer? not suspicious. bullet in the head? obvious. car crash? suspicious.


and now your bullshit about JFK assassination? yeah aestu, you're clearly losing this one.

Are you saying that's impossible? Or irrational? Do you think that's less rational than Murdoch having to deal with the consequences of what this guy says?

You're putting out red herrings here.

This is why your survivalist stuff is nonsense. You can't conceive of a world without law.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I'm not sure what my survivalist bullshit(most of which includes zombies, btw) has anything to do with this conversation. talk about red fishies.

if you're going to say the coroner is in on it, you might want to put the entire police squad that shows up to the crime scene before the coroner ever arrives in on it as well.

hi i'm aestu, and ive never seen a crime scene before in my life.

Azelma I love you (for both posts).

1. Wrong
2. Very wrong
3. What's your point? You define your toughness through proximity to violent crime?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I'm not sure that my toughness has anything to do with this thread.

My point is since you can't seem to find anything suspicious about the death of the witness aside from the fact that the witness died, you're grasping at straws.

That's sufficiently "suspicious". All the more so in context.

The relevance of your "toughness/survivalism" is that your naivete makes it very clear you would not last long in the sort of world you envision, with no structure or restraint on human behavior. You grossly underestimate the value of guile and it's a quality you lack.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

As someone who actually has had some professional training in what has come to be known as "social engineering," the world he imagines is the world we live in. Structures, even social ones, have inherent weaknesses that can be exploited, and the 'restraints' only work on those who allow those restraints to function as intended.

As far as the idea that someone whacked this guy goes, it's as retarded as "the Jews destroyed the World Trade Center." Not only would there be no point in killing this guy now that this has been exposed, but like most conspiracy theories, it falls apart the farther you have to cast your net for conspirators. The more people you add, the less likely there is a conspiracy based on the simple fact that people can't keep their fucking smelly face-holes shut. If he had additional information that would have been damaging, it's hard to imagine that he wouldn't have sold it to the highest bidder already given his role in the chain of events, or traded it away to prosecutors for advantage, or even to Murdoch's lackeys in exchange for money/assistance with his legal defense.

This is leaving aside the fact that there's not exactly an 800 number for professional killers (and an amateur wouldn't have the cops---the hundreds you've now implicated that has reduced the likelihood of the scenario you suggest--saying it didn't look suspicious), and that those tradesmen are people who avoid high-profile situations whenever possible. The funds necessary to secure such a service would be noticeable in any routine audit of Murdoch's/Newscorp's finances, which a subpoena would make possible, especially given the current high-profile nature of the target.

Given all that, anyone with a lick of sense can see that this is just the depraved ravings of some paranoid schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur and an inability to socialize who is, not surprisingly, living the life of a hermit. Congratulations, Dr. Kaczynski, the payload of stupid you loaded into that bomb has blown up the internet.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

It's not a far net at all. The London police were heavily incriminated by the scandal and had much to lose from the investigation proceeding - and much to gain by putting a stop to it.

Each and every cop doesn't need to participate in a "cover-up" any more than each and every officer in the Navy needs to participate in any of the many cover-ups they've engaged in over the years.

If you have a billion dollars and really want to make someone disappear you can do it. Arguing otherwise is asinine.

Exposed? Hardly. Murdoch didn't go to jail, it remains to be seen how many if anyone will. That's incentive enough to put a stop to the investigation by axing a witness.

I'd also like to point out that people have given me this same garbage before about how I'm whack, etc, yet time and again my estimates of a situation have a way of being proven correct. The Japanese reactor thing? I said there was clearly a meltdown and falsification of information, and that there would be long-term economic and geopolitical ramifications. Everyone else loudly insisted I was being paranoid etc, but in the end I was proven correct; did anyone mail me flowers? No.

Let me ask you this: if two years ago you were told that Bernie Madoff or Kenneth Lay were running multi-billion dollar Ponzi schemes cleverly disguised as Wall Street stalwarts, would you have believed it? Or written it off as a "conspiracy theory"?

The funds, and number of people involved, in that case, were many times greater than in this one. Yet that "conspiracy" came to pass all the same.

When the "conspiracy" was unravelled, how many people were netted? How many people probably knew (or had a hunch) about what Madoff was doing but didn't say anything?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I love to give you a clever response, but I'm too busy laughing at how much that sounds like people with drinking problems insisting they don't have a problem.

First, not every single officer in Scotland Yard was involved. That means that there are honest cops who will clean up the mess, among who are probably a few looking to move up into the jobs vacated by those shamed out of their positions by this scandal. Again, this is leaving aside the fact that people can't shut their mouth and keep a secret, not that it matters now, because the cat is out of the bag...not that any of this was a well-kept secret anyway: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 36770.html The hacking has been going on since at least 1999, and it involves more tabloids than News of the World...but no one is really interested since none of the other rags belong to Rupert Murdoch.

Rupert Murdoch may have billions, but buying a death isn't easy, no matter how much money you have. On top of that, what's he get out of the guy being dead? This isn't going to stop just because some asshole who hacked people's shit is dead. The guy being dead didn't keep Murdoch from having to appear before a parliamentary committee, it's not going to stop any on-going investigations, it's not going to stop the giant snowball that is already moving from going down-hill. The deceased had a history of recent ill health and was under a great deal of stress. Sherlock Holmes 101: The most likely answer is usually the right one, and it's more likely the man died of natural causes than it is that Murdoch, while under intense scrutiny at the moment, blew some undisclosed huge amount of money on killing him so that he wouldn't...what?

Stupid people being swindled because they didn't research their investment, or were knowingly tossing money at something dubious hoping to turn a profit before it turned to shit isn't the same thing as suggesting that shadowy figures lurk in the fog killing people because...well, no reason, exactly, other than you've decided that it happened despite there being no evidence, other than your own paranoid delusions, to believe such a thing happened.

I might just be missing the brilliance of the 'guy who is never wrong,' yet doesn't realize corn oil isn't an appropriate sexual lubricant...or the guy that thought Nixon had been impeached...or the guy who...oh, never mind. I'm sure you have a host of good reasons why you weren't really wrong about any of those things, and any of us who try to talk you out of your tree are just ignorant buffoons for not buying it. Yet I sincerely doubt that's the case, and that my original assessment of "you're off your nut" applies.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Red herring.



If things worked that way we would live in a much better world.

I agree in principle, of course, but as you and I would agree, courage is in short supply lately.



Curious how another op-ed piece and not a news article pleads Murdoch's case.

And it's under false pretenses. The police weren't the victims; they were the perpetrators. The article makes a wide variety of claims and allegations but there is no cogent point except that Murdoch should be let off the hook.

The op-ed piece is also a blatant strawman because the comparisons it makes doesn't cover the full extent of the illegality in question.



Stop? No, but be stymied enough it will wind down into business as usual.

You like to complain to no end about the cronyism and lack of effectiveness of our political system but you never stop to think about how you the common man, who believes what the media tells you, fits into that picture. This is a democracy, after all.



Stupid people? Jubber, these victims were far wealthier and more successful - and also a lot smarter - than you'll ever be. Really, who's the megalomaniac now? Who's the guy insisting that he's on the inside track and everyone else is stupid?

The Maddoff scheme was remarkable because these victims were some of the best and brightest. They committed one error, though, which was to take things at face value - to assume that big meant infallible and esteemed meant honorable. They did what you are doing which is refusing to take one's own estimate.



You insulted me but you didn't address my point - that I've been right too many times where others said I was off the deep end.

I've gotten this kind of bullshit from people about too many issues to count but curiously no one ever comes back and says "Oh, damn, you were right." That is why I feel quite secure in my arrogance; because no matter how many times I'm proven correct or the lengths to which I go to outline my logic, people will continue to unimaginatively believe what they will.

I call it "White Elephant Syndrome". People recognize and acknowledge my superior intelligence and knowledge, and embrace the immediate benefits it brings, but that acknowledgement quickly turns to lame and petty efforts to "split the difference" by insisting every merit must be balanced by some sort of flaw - clearly, my views on the world at large are stupid and wrong because I don't know so much about sex lubricants. Hence my intellect, for small people is a white elephant - a curiosity.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

GTFO. You've never read Sherlock Holmes, because if you had you'd know that that's exactly the opposite of the general theme of Sherlock Holmes stories.

Holmes thinks Scotland Yard is a bunch of dumbasses and second-guesses them and their facile interpretations in several stories. The general theme of Holmes is that the "obvious" conclusion is most likely the WRONG one because someone put it there for a reason. That's what makes the stories so interesting.

The Sherlock Holmes stories are really about why people like you are fking stupid. In citing them you reveal how little you really understand not only the stories but life itself.

In the stories, Holmes is portrayed as an aloof eccentric with basically no friends (other than Watson and the one guy at Scotland Yard who talks to him) who curls into a fetal position in his chair and sits like that, motionless, for hours, while he works problems out. In one episode he's asked to attend a party and he refuses because he says he thinks they're lame and prefers to keep to himself. He also likes to solve enigmatic and trivial intellectual puzzles not connected to crime; those around him take a dim view of this. On the whole, he's portrayed as a depressed, morbid, cynical individual with a sort of whimsical and mirthful sense of humor.

When Watson or the Inspector talk to Holmes their initial reaction is usually one of skepticism or apprehension, but they give him the benefit of the doubt because they know he's been right before.

There is a reason why he's a PI and not an inspector, and how his eccentricities are part of his greater-than-average wisdom.

The fact you cite both Holmes and the stupid corn oil thing in the same breath prove my point: you're one of those people who think they're on the inside track when really they are buying the same tripe as everyone else who unimaginatively subscribes to the prevailing wisdom. What the Sherlock Holmes stories are really all about is that this guy can see more clearly what's going on precisely because he's aloof and doesn't buy the groupthink.

I don't think I'm infallible. I don't think I'm always right. I think I am more likely right and less often wrong because I have the courage to examine my own thoughts.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.