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 Post subject: Re: 2081 (Aestu Thread)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:47 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Azelma wrote:
inb4 you tell me that every book I've read is bad.


I don't care to know every book you read any more than you care to know every book I've read; most of the books I've read were quite bad. Most books are bad.

Azelma wrote:
My views have been formed by all these things...I can't point to one specific book or article I've read and say "this is what made me think this way...


Then you haven't truly read them.

You may have gone through the books and identified the topic of the plot, but you haven't read them unless you can really say what those books meant, to you, and how they influenced you. I listed a lot of books, but in each case I made a point of saying how I interpreted those books and how they shaped my views - which more often than not wasn't what the books were literally about.

One of my favorite books, like I said, is History of the Peloponnesian War. That war is what the book is literally about. The book is an enduring influence, however, not because the war itself is of interest but because of the book's themes and how the author tells the story to highlight the nature of the players' motives. Grapes of Wrath is literally about the Okies, but the story is of interest not because the Okies are important to us but because of the criticism of the system that is the central theme of the story. Same with every book on my list.

So I'll ask you again. What have you read that shaped your views? I'll even narrow the field of inquiry... the nature of opportunity and the free market economy - where did you get those notions?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 2081 (Aestu Thread)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:54 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu wrote:
So I'll ask you again. What have you read that shaped your views? I'll even narrow the field of inquiry... the nature of opportunity and the free market economy - where did you get those notions?


The Wealth of Nations - Adam Smith

also

1984 (my general distrust of government)


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: 2081 (Aestu Thread)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:56 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Ok. And let me ask you, how do you apply the influence of that book to issues such as employment and the economy?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: 2081 (Aestu Thread)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:30 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 3:33 pm
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Aestu wrote:
Ok. And let me ask you, how do you apply the influence of that book to issues such as employment and the economy?


Don't you have Dukes and Earls to appoint?


Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming
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 Post subject: Re: 2081 (Aestu Thread)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:32 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Was speaking metaphorically. Meant it mostly in the Edmond Dantes sense.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: 2081 (Aestu Thread)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:30 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu wrote:
Was speaking metaphorically. Meant it mostly in the Edmond Dantes sense.


For the record, I love the Count of Monte Cristo.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: 2081 (Aestu Thread)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:37 pm  
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French Faggot
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:15 pm
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You should apply Dune to your life more than anything else on that list. Enlightened despotism will defeat 1984 every time.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh
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 Post subject: Re: 2081 (Harrison Bergeron Film)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:40 pm  
Kunckleheaded Knob
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:08 pm
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Yuratuhl wrote:
Eturnalshift wrote:
I wish I was so vastly above-average smart that I could reach different, yet wrong, conclusions a great vastly most of the time.


Don't worry, there's no chance of you ever being smart.



Best post in thread.


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=Mazeltov
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 Post subject: Re: 2081 (Aestu Thread)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:22 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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You still didn't answer my question. How do you apply 1984 and Wealth of Nations to your views on unemployment and economic opportunity?

Also, you cite independence from your parents as evidence of your merit. You talk about your test scores; I don't need to see them to know they weren't in proportion to your position in the social hierarchy.

But doesn't that just as easily prove the opposite - that you accomplished that precisely because what your parents gave you outweighed what they did not to a far greater extent than most in society?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: 2081 (Aestu Thread)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:29 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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...


Azelma

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Last edited by Azelma on Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 2081 (Aestu Thread)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:05 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Quote:
Smith advocates a tax naturally attached to the "abilities" and habits of each echelon of society.

For the lower echelon, Smith recognized the intellectually erosive effect that the otherwise beneficial division of labour can have on workers, what Marx, though he mainly opposes Smith, later named "alienation,"; therefore, Smith warns of the consequence of government failing to fulfill its proper role, which is to preserve against the innate tendency of human society to fall apart.

..."the understandings of the greater part of men are necessarily formed by their ordinary employments. The man whose whole life is spent in performing a few simple operations, of which the effects are perhaps always the same, or very nearly the same, has no occasion to exert his understanding or to exercise his invention in finding out expedients for removing difficulties which never occur. He naturally loses, therefore, the habit of such exertion, and generally becomes as stupid and ignorant as it is possible for a human creature to become. The torpor of his mind renders him not only incapable of relishing or bearing a part in any rational conversation, but of conceiving any generous, noble, or tender sentiment, and consequently of forming any just judgment concerning many even of the ordinary duties of private life... But in every improved and civilized society this is the state into which the laboring poor, that is, the great body of the people, must necessarily fall, unless government takes some pains to prevent it."[15]


Why do you support making specialization and competition the supreme value of society when Adam Smith himself claims that would be morally bad?

Why do you interpret Adam Smith CONTRARY to what he actually said (predicating society on specialization is bad) but PARALLEL to powerful interests in the here and now?

What elements of the state, exactly, do you think oppose free enterprise?

Why do you think the gold standard is better than paper money?

Azelma wrote:
He took all the risk, used his own money to start the business...why shouldn't he receive the fruits of his labor?


Except it's not true...

1. Unless a businessperson is "Robinson Crusoe", a business is built with someone else's money, be it a bank, investors or Mom & Dad. Is not the premise of free enterprise investment...and is not the premise of investment the use of someone else's money? If it's someone else's money, clearly the risk is NOT entirely that of the owner.

2. You say the "majority owner" "invested his own cash". Is the business a privately owned sole proprietorship? Where did he get the cash?

3. Most of the best paid executives did NOT start their own businesses, they were appointed by the Powers That Be to head existing enterprises. For example - did McCain start Godfather's?

4. Why do the execs deserve all credit given that society created the conditions, both human and material, for their success?

5. If a big business goes under, haven't the workers who have established a long-term relationship with them ALSO lost their lives due to "risk", and not just the execs?

Quote:
Look no further than the disaster that was the governments bail outs. The government should have let them fail.


Why didn't it?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: 2081 (Aestu Thread)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:31 pm  
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Obama Zombie
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 1:48 pm
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Aestu: Answer my seventeen questions.
Azelma: Ok. Answer my one.
Aestu: Ok, answer thirty-seven more.
Azelma: Ok... but will you answer my one?
Aestu: Here's some more questions...
Azelma: Ok, here's one you still haven't answered.

PS: FOR SOMEONE SO FUCKING 'SMART' MAYBE AESTU WOULD FINALLY REALIZE THAT MCCAIN ISN'T EVEN RELEVANT - IT'S CAIN FFS...
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 Post subject: Re: 2081 (Aestu Thread)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:35 pm  
Blathering Buffoon
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:12 am
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Aestu: Answer my seventeen questions.
Azelma: Ok. Answer my one.
Aestu: Ok, answer thirty-seven more.
Azelma: Ok... but will you answer my one?
Aestu: Here's some more questions...
Azelma: Ok, here's one you still haven't answered.

PS: FOR SOMEONE SO FUCKING 'SMART' MAYBE AESTU WOULD FINALLY REALIZE THAT MCCAIN ISN'T EVEN RELEVANT - IT'S CAIN FFS...


It's a routine tactic if you've got someone who won't be assertive in a conversation and call you on it. You don't need to make points or present arguments, you just need to ask questions as if you're trying to teach a child. He does it all the time and Azelma pretty much always bites on it.


Dvergar /
Quisling
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 Post subject: Re: 2081 (Aestu Thread)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:55 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:41 am
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...


Azelma

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Last edited by Azelma on Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: 2081 (Aestu Thread)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:10 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 3:33 pm
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Azelma, to your credit you've never been "assaulted" by a female campus security guard.


Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming
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