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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:51 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Jubbergun wrote:
Ignoring how foolish the idea that the government should be completely transparent is, allowing this information to get set loose (and this was probably done purposely by someone in State with an axe to grind) is going to cause, at the very least, a lot of friction and mistrust between our government and others.


Ok. Then isn't it in our best interest to let it go public, to face public criticism, then adjust policy accordingly? Doesn't that yield the best outcome - a straighter policy course?

Isn't that how democracy works - the people decide between two courses?

Jubbergun wrote:
Again, I'd have to know what is being kept secret to know the value of it being kept secret. You're basically saying, "If x+y/r*z=s, what is the actual numeric value of r?" You're asking a question I don't have the required information to answer.


Circular logic.

"I can't know if it's important because it's secret, and it's secret because it's important".

But what if it's not important at all, just humiliating to certain people because they are making mistakes?

Jubbergun wrote:
Aestu wrote:
Jubbergun wrote:
I criticize acts that are plainly wrong according the simply written English contained in the document that is supposed to be the basis for our system of government. Most of those acts are generally justified on the basis of legal decisions that 'translate' portions of that document to mean things they plainly don't mean.

One of the many duties that document directly states belongs exclusively to the federal government is the defense of the nation. It can reasonably be argued that keeping information secret for the purposes of such defense is a proper function of government. The duties of diplomacy (treaties explicitly) are also reserved to the federal government, and confidentiality would be equally valuable to the government in that role, as you'll probably be seeing in the weeks to come.

As to who assigns these roles, the elected representatives responsible for appointing such individuals derive this authority from various sections of the Constitution and subsequent documents. Many of these appointments are reviewed by other elected officials, especially presidential appointments where congress has an 'advise and consent' role.

I'm not sure what put this wild hair up your ass, or why you're plainly making what I said out to be about things other than what I directly addressed, but I'd think you'd be quite done with having some half-educated forklift artiste make you look like a stupid ass on a public forum by now.

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Ok. Show me where this "document" gives said authority "in plain English."


[The President] shall nominate, and, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

I guess they don't teach this anymore, even in college?

Your Pal,
Jubber


None of which gives any of those offices the right to break the law or to keep secrets from the people.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:55 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnalshift wrote:
You won't run a table if you always show your hand in poker.


Unlike in poker, world affairs are not zero-sum, and there are other factors than skill and means in determining outcomes - such as right and wrong.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:57 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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as long as its not military deployments or other things like cia spook identities, then it's probably not as bad as I dread it is.

still, if these people aren't silenced, and the leaks plugged, then maybe someone in washington WANTS the leaks released.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:06 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
as long as its not military deployments or other things like cia spook identities, then it's probably not as bad as I dread it is.

still, if these people aren't silenced, and the leaks plugged, then maybe someone in washington WANTS the leaks released.


BINGO!!!!

The whole "scream about it but do nothing" is classic. They want you to think they don't want it released, but do everything they can to draw your attention to it.

If this was really something to be concerned about, the wikileaks people would be in a refrigerated drawer right now.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:13 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Circular logic again.

By your logic, the people whom you think the secrecy is protecting have the power and inclination to kill any number of innocent people in foreign countries at will because they said something they didn't like. But because they didn't, it follows nothing was said they didn't like. So therefore, their secrecy was upheld.

What if the truth is, they can't, or don't think they can get away with it?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:28 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Circular logic doesn't mean I'm wrong. The world is batshit bonkers, and it's still a possibility.


Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't make it untrue.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:33 pm  
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Im with aestu here and TGS here.

Also i love how some people hold up the constitution as the epitomy of awesomeness.

Its all fun and dandy, but there are some things about it that arent perfect, but everyone holds it up as the new bible.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:33 pm  
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I think it's quaint that you don't think people couldn't just be offed, regardless of their location, if the right people decided they should be.

You know bupkiss about how the shady parts of the world work.

Maybe, just maybe, the people that make those sorts of decisions would rather discredit the obnoxious little fop than kill him.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:17 pm  
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The executive order is just a process stated by the President in which data should be handled and released to the public. It's not a law. It's not bypassing and congressional process. The executive order just establishes a way for handling information, on who should see the data and how it gets declassified. Nothing illegal with creating a process within the government for dealing with data gathered by the government.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:18 pm  
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Jubbergun wrote:

Maybe, just maybe, the people that make those sorts of decisions would rather discredit the obnoxious little fop than kill him.

Practically speaking, the government is going to get blamed for these rape charges anyways. If they kill him, they'll get blamed anyways and then Assange will be gone forever.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:36 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnalshift wrote:
The executive order is just a process stated by the President in which data should be handled and released to the public. It's not a law. It's not bypassing and congressional process. The executive order just establishes a way for handling information, on who should see the data and how it gets declassified. Nothing illegal with creating a process within the government for dealing with data gathered by the government.


That presupposes both that he has the right to make that choice in the first place, and that the President personally is calling the shots. Neither is true.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:38 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Jubbergun wrote:
I think it's quaint that you don't think people couldn't just be offed, regardless of their location, if the right people decided they should be.

You know bupkiss about how the shady parts of the world work.

And do you?

Who are these "right people" and who should be "offed" and based on what criteria? Are you sure you're pro-democracy or only when it serves your views?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:06 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
Jubbergun wrote:
I think it's quaint that you don't think people couldn't just be offed, regardless of their location, if the right people decided they should be.

You know bupkiss about how the shady parts of the world work.

And do you?

Who are these "right people" and who should be "offed" and based on what criteria? Are you sure you're pro-democracy or only when it serves your views?


I do know, not that I'm going to allow you to tangent this off on a three-day bender about the various transgressions of my youth.

I'm not pro-democracy. Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. We live in a Constitutional Republic. There's a huge difference. Go learn it. Brush up on the basics of American governance while you're at it, since it appears you aren't familiar with the subject. There should be plenty of time for that while you're hiding in your Ivory Tower deluding yourself into thinking that you have some idea what happens outside the confines of personal microcosm.

Your Pal,
Jubber


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:51 pm  
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Spoilers: we're utterly incapable of killing who we want when we want.

If we weren't, we'd have killed Osama bin Laden NINE FUCKING YEARS AGO.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:11 pm  
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Get Off My Lawn!
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Yuratuhl wrote:
If we weren't, we'd have killed Osama bin Laden NINE FUCKING YEARS AGO.



This might very well be true. It also might be true that having a "boogie man" OUT THERE SOMEWHERE could be the fear card that always seems to be a hole card for most governments. There always seems to be one, doesn't there?


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