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 Post subject: Re: @arab spring
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:00 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Quote:
33 years after the Iranian revolution


All claims to objectivity out the window (and I know you have no idea why that is)

EDIT: OK, I'll spell it out for you.

These protests didn't take place in Iran. They are far, far, far from Iran (about as far as the distance from DC to Panama) and the people in question are of an unrelated ethnic group and do not speak the same language. They have no common history. Their way of life is very different. The only thing they have in common is that they are Muslim (although no more similar in faith than Protestants and Orthodox), they're sitting on oil, and we are at odds with them because we're trying to get their oil.

So why bring Iran into this?

There are a surprising number of American foreign policy hacks and corporate interests still bitter we lost control of the country in 1979. Never mind that the reason the revolution succeeded was not because of the appeal of radical Islam but because the Shah's government and its brutal Savak secret police was despised by most mainstream secular Iranians. Acting on the basis of this butthurtness, these hacks have resisted normalization of relations with the new government and obstinately continue to bitterly antagonize and persecute it, maintaining the embargo and supporting spies and subversion within the country (and demonizing the Iranians for their periodic executions of CIA agents operating in the country).

Meanwhile, India and the EU have normalized relations. Curiously, despite the fact those countries also have a shared history with Iran (and not entirely a friendly one - Iran is also allies with India's archnemesis, and the EU ruled Iran for over a century), they don't have a problem with the Iranians. Although you have no knowledge of any of the countries or their history (or even our own), I'm sure you have some obtuse rationalization why the fact we can't get along with the Iranians like everyone else is somehow due to our being amazing and the Iranians being obsessed with doing us harm.

Iran has no power over what happens in Libya, nor do they have a reason to care. They had no involvement in the embassy attacks, having gotten out of that business some decades ago when they felt they had progressed far enough economically that they had something to lose and wanted to rejoin the international community.

Aside from American obtuseness, the Iranians were largely successful in doing so. But now some American and Israeli interests want to continue antagonizing Iran, or perhaps even make war on them, at a crucial juncture where it's becoming increasingly obvious that the status quo isn't working. Ironically enough, the American embargo and bitter persecution of the Iranians has united the country behind their government and its assertive policies, encouraged them to develop the bomb, and, alone amongst the oil states, to funnel their earnings into civil development, with the net result that Iran is eclipsing Israel in wealth and prestige, as the Israeli economy is beginning to falter (lol yogurt riots - you don't know about that either) and American help is looking like less and less of a sure thing. In short, this is a case of violence being the last refuge of the incompetent.

Bringing up Iran gets at what the article is really all about which is trying to turn what are wars over resources into somehow being about American values. You are ignorant of the reasons why this is so and as such prove you are in fact being manipulated.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: @arab spring
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:38 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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In before Jubber gives some obtuse rationalization why, despite not being previously aware of any of that, America is awesome, these people we're fighting are bad guys, and he'll dredge up some other right-wing Pravda article off Google because he's too damn stupid and lazy to go read a book, and for all his military welfare blather, he doesn't love his country enough to think about what is really best for it.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: @arab spring
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:00 am  
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Obama Zombie
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Aestu wrote:
These protests didn't take place in Iran. They are far, far, far from Iran (about as far as the distance from DC to Panama) and the people in question are of an unrelated ethnic group and do not speak the same language. They have no common history. Their way of life is very different. The only thing they have in common is that they are Muslim (although no more similar in faith than Protestants and Orthodox), they're sitting on oil, and we are at odds with them because we're trying to get their oil.

So why bring Iran into this?

Quote:
Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran's supreme leader, said the U.S. government should bring to justice those behind a film that ridiculed Muslims and the Prophet Mohammed.

Khameini on Thursday called the making of the film a "criminal act," according to the state-run Islamic Republic News Agency (IRNA).

His comments came the same day university students protested outside the Swiss Embassy in Tehran, blaming the United States and Israel for the American-made film.

The Swiss Embassy represents U.S. interests in Iran.

Source

Looks like Iran brought Iran into this and not for reasons that you state (us wanting their Oil), but for reasons that I've stated, such as this video is blasphemy, according to Islam, and that is punishable with Islamic Law... hence why Iran is calling this a criminal act.

Since you didn't know there were Iranian protests I'm going to assume you don't about the others in nearly two dozen countries. Educate yourself on where the protests are by refering to this nice interactive map. WHO KNEW THERE WAS SO MUCH OIL IN THE UK, MOROCCO, INDIA, KENYA, MALAYSIA, ETC...
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 Post subject: Re: @arab spring
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:14 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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But the article isn't talking about any of that. The case being made is linking this current event with the Iranian revolution, arguing that this incident is part of a long and implacable trend that justifies a military response, rather than a singular response to an event taking place in the current political climate.

Really though you're just proving you're a bigot and hypocrite. You bitch about violent protests and terrorism etc, but when the protests are non-violent, you bitch about that too.

Quote:
hence why Iran is calling this a criminal act


So what? 9-11 was a crime, does that mean go blow up the Saudi embassy? Agreeing that something was wrong and shouldn't have been done doesn't mean they are responsible for the bombings.

Quote:
In before Jubber [or Eturnal] gives some obtuse rationalization why, despite not being previously aware of any of that, America is awesome, these people we're fighting are bad guys, and he'll dredge up some other right-wing Pravda article off Google because he's too damn stupid and lazy to go read a book, and for all his military welfare blather, he doesn't love his country enough to think about what is really best for it.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: @arab spring
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:33 am  
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Obama Zombie
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You missed the point or are being willfully daft. In either case, nice try at side-stepping.
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 Post subject: Re: @arab spring
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I understand your point. You're trying to argue that everyone who agrees that something was wrong and should not have happened shares responsibility for whatever anyone decides to do in consequence. That is your underlying premise.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: @arab spring
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:06 pm  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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I'm sorry, I'm still not sure what all that bullshit about Iran has to do with what I said, which is that implying these shenanigans are justified is wrong and that you can't avoid offending and angering a group of people who will make up a reason to be offended/angry if you don't give them one. I'm even less sure what all that bullshit was about after Eternal broke it down.

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 Post subject: Re: @arab spring
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:53 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Jubbergun wrote:
who will make up a reason to be offended/angry if you don't give them one


This argument has already been debunked.

We're the only ones whose embassies etc are being blown up, they didn't attack us until we meddled in their internal affairs, and we were at peace with them for a very long time (centuries) until we started shit.

Anyway, now that we're back at Track 1, I think it's time to put the disc back in the case...


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: @arab spring
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:37 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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Aestu wrote:
We're the only ones whose embassies etc are being blown up, they didn't attack us until we meddled in their internal affairs...

In many countries, the US embassies were attacked, but in some of the middle-east countries, the UK, German and Swiss embassies have seen their share of mayhem. I'm sure I don't need to remind you about the hundred lives lost and the Danish embassies that were torched over drawings like this. Cartoons and poorly made movies aren't meddling -- They're cartoons and movies. That's it.

The BBC does a horrible job keeping you informed about what's happening in the world... and to think you tout your strong international understanding when, clearly, you don't know what the fuck is going on out there.

Quote:
and we were at peace with them for a very long time (centuries) until we started shit.

Dumb.

Quote:
Anyway, now that we're back at Track 1, I think it's time to put the disc back in the case...

Thinking you're right, when you're wrong, doesn't make you right.
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 Post subject: Re: @arab spring
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:58 pm  
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Eturnalshift wrote:
In many countries, the US embassies were attacked, but in some of the middle-east countries, the UK, German and Swiss embassies have seen their share of mayhem. I'm sure I don't need to remind you about the hundred lives lost and the Danish embassies that were torched over drawings like this. Cartoons and poorly made movies aren't meddling -- They're cartoons and movies. That's it.


Quote:
Really though you're just proving you're a bigot and hypocrite. You bitch about violent protests and terrorism etc, but when the protests are non-violent, you bitch about that too.


Quote:
Quote:
and we were at peace with them for a very long time (centuries) until we started shit.

Dumb.


Quote:
Thinking you're right, when you're wrong, doesn't make you right.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: @arab spring
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:42 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Quote:
and we were at peace with them for a very long time (centuries) until we started shit.

Dumb.


Not dumb.

Eturnalshift wrote:
Quote:
Anyway, now that we're back at Track 1, I think it's time to put the disc back in the case...

Thinking you're right, when you're wrong, doesn't make you right.


Though I'm anything but in the middle here, I don't see how, logically, an unbiased third party could read this entire thread and side with Eturnal on this one.. Maybe I'm missing something?


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 Post subject: Re: @arab spring
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:36 pm  
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French Faggot
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Nationalism and the concept that one's country can do no wrong.

We hate those guys, therefore they suck and we're always justified in bombing them.


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 Post subject: Re: @arab spring
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:30 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Considering their treatment of women, sensitivity towards depictions of a man whos been dead hundreds of years/inclination towards violence over said dead man, and their medieval justice system, I'm 100% for considering them subhuman.

Which is why we should just stay the fuck out until they evolve into human fucking beings.


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 Post subject: Re: @arab spring
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:58 am  
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Usdk wrote:
Considering their treatment of women


Muslims are a diverse bunch. The Saudis and Afghans are the ones that are notorious for being violently misogynistic - and both are our allies. Iran and Libya are both considerably more conservative than our culture, but they don't do the kinds of things the Saudis and Afghans do.

All four, despite being Muslim, are different ethnic groups, with different histories (Arab, Afghan, Persian, Berber). It is their ethnicity, not their faith, that is the driving force in their respective ways of life.

I can't speak authoritatively about the Libyans, but I've known quite a few Iranian women, as well as following the scarf controversy in France. Iranian women truly believe in their way of life.

Usdk wrote:
sensitivity towards depictions of a man whos been dead hundreds of years/inclination towards violence over said dead man


They take their faith seriously. I don't see why we need to make a point of offending them.

Not all the population of the country bombed the embassies. Do we blame all Americans for the action of the Unabomber or Timothy McVeigh? Then why blame all Muslims for what some did?

Usdk wrote:
and their medieval justice system


Are we really in a position to cast stones about this?

They have their foibles, we have ours. They'd be at least as right to hold America's racism, bizarre free market ideas, exploitative greed, and hedonism against us and judge us as inhuman. Our or divorce courts or astronomical prison population, or our attitudes about guns. Would you think that fair?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: @arab spring
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:34 am  
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"Yeah but 'merica doesn't bomb abortion clinics nearly as often."

And in America, people can generally walk a few blocks to Citizen Factories, erm uh 'public schools' sorry..with very little risk or perceived risk of someone jihadding their fat Big Mac filled ass into the sidewalk.

The two regions are not comparable. You say the middle eastern region is barbaric, which is true though not because of Islam (or more accurately Islam's teachings) and not because of someone's race...it's a matter of education, living conditions and being sick and tired of the big bully new kid on the block called "America" to be quite honest.

You can say 'they hate our freedom' or any other dumbed down and infantile argument, but that's not the case at all. They 'hate' (for lack of a more grown up way of addressing their grievances) the extent that America involves itself in the affairs of other nations.

Israel isn't the problem, our "support" (playing favorites because our politicians are bought) is the problem. Judaism isn't the problem, Zionism is the problem. Anti-semitism isn't the problem, political correctness being used as a means to suppress an otherwise valid argument is the problem.

I don't think that the problems would magically go away if we addressed our glaringly hypocritical foreign policy issues, but don't expect any love as long as we support Israel to the extent that we do while claiming to be neutral.

The problems exceed my ability to outline them. There are a lot of reasons why violence in the middle east has reached the proportions that it has. Please don't be so arrogant as to assume the entire world is backasswards Jawas living in huts that are 'just jelly of America and our cable tv and indoor plumbing.'

Please. They don't hate our freedom, Islam is the world's second largest religion (correct me if I'm wrong) and while the Qu'ran has violent passages (just like the bible, holy shit) the vast majority of followers are not violent people.

You can't compare the two regions and the living conditions and behaviors of inhabitants. The USA is not the middle east and vice versa.


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