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I think modern feminism is more of a response to unreasonable societal impositions than it is an outgrowth of moral philosophy.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

Did you sign up for selective service simone?

Women cannot sign up for Selective Service.

Regardless, saying that one is in favor is an argument of convenience. The fact is, the feminist movement has just never considered it a priority, and there's no indication that's going to change.

Anyway, you said I was just going to name-call, but I didn't...yet rather than engage what I said and how I very thoroughly demonstrated the movement is a sham, instead the best you can do is pick out a single incidental part of it and try to debunk it with a "saying-so".

What does that seem to indicate about the validity of your claims about feminism?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Gonna pull a line outta the Aestu handbook and say if you think all feminists believe all the same things or that a platform of an organization or political party is representative of an extremely vague and expansive ideology then you are stupid and wrong and bad because I said so.

/thread

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

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Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

No u

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Clarify:

React: would you use that argument to defend libertarianism, or communism, or any other contemporary social movement - rather than looking at what the movement does?

Continuing my analogy with libertarianism - libertarians talk about freedom from this or that, on the basis of some sort of moral principle. But no sensible person examines libertarianism from the standpoint of its empty verbiage, but how the ideology plays out in practice: free beer, freedom from taxes, conscription, inconvenient legislation, high prices, and any of the other unpleasant necessities of civilized life that people just don't like. Communism, same deal; workers of the world unite, blah blah, but what it means in practice is the mirror image of capitalism, the monopolization of all power and resources by an unelected clique. And sensible people don't use the excuse of sectarian divisions to write off what these movements actually do in the here and now.

So why not examine feminism from the same standpoint - not what it claims but how it works in practice?

Zaryi: someone once observed that American women want life to be like a buffet, where they can pick and choose the things they like, while avoiding anything unpleasant. And that is a reality for most American women; they don't have to work if they don't have to, and because of women's shelters, homelessness is an exclusively male problem.

You talk about "women in the workplace". But when you say "workplace", you really only mean the cushy, easy, high-paying jobs - middle management and such - that everyone likes but are highly competitive. Feminists have no interest in "equality" on the lowest rungs of the employment ladder - doing difficult, dangerous, labor-intensive or technically demanding jobs.

So what entitles women as a class to equality higher up on the ladder?

You talk a lot about "stuff" feminists are going to give women...what's the tradeoff? What price are women consenting to pay?

Or is this just about female whims after all?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

And it's always phrases like that which lets you know the reason they take issue with it is because they don't know anything about it. What you describe in bold is not libertarianism. This is one of the main reasons you can't be taken seriously. You set yourself up as a "learned authority," but despite your boasts about the breadth of your scholarship and how much you've read, you are constantly showing that you take away from what you read everything except the actual point.

I challenge you to show any libertarian authors/philosophers that call for free beer and/or freedom from taxes and/or high prices.



Yet despite that, the blind squirrel occasionally manages to find a nut.

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Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

When you talk about "libertarian philosophers" who are you referring to?

Here I make the same argument I made to React in reverse: you can't look at what the movement says, only what it does...and just as with feminism, libertarianism never talks about any costs, just about how it gives this or that. I'd make the same argument here I did to Zaryi: what are the putative benefits of the libertarian philosophy, and what costs are you willing to pay towards that end?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

And I could spin that right back around and say, "Who and/or what is the libertarian movement?" "Who and/or what that is part of that movement is talking about 'giving this or that?'" You've basically just tossed together a bunch of things you think libertarians believe with no reference to any actual libertarians saying anything that would support you saying those are libertarian ideas. As you are the one asserting that those are things libertarians believe, it falls to you cite your sources.

Until you actually read and comprehend something on the subject, you're no more fit to speak on it than I am on the subject of quantum physics. All your reading means nothing when you fail to understand the things you've read.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Butthurt about being told to go read and doing a very awkward "no u" and thinking it isn't obvious

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Trying to guilt me into giving you the last word and thinking it's not obvious

(not to mention comically hypocritical)

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

And yet...