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I'm not saying they're the same thing, I'm saying that you can't look down your nose as someone choosing death for themselves or someone else if your moral framework is such that it is justified in other, less dire, circumstances. Allowing yourself or a family member to die isn't any different than choosing to humanely kill yourself or a family member.

Why is it that liberals can do fancy somersaults of thinking to justify what they like, but the moment they encounter something they disagree with they're suddenly only able to perceive things in the most simplistic of manners...a fault they easily see in conservatives, they miss in themselves? The prohibition on transfusion associated with the Jehovah's Witnesses isn't about "Jesus being mad you used medicine." The group believes that engaging in the practice is the moral equivalent of cannibalism. They're not refusing science and medicine, they're refusing to partake in the consumption of human flesh to sustain their life.

Is that weird? It seems like it on the surface, and it's not a practice I condone, but...God/The Devil is in the details (Ha Ha!!). Boiling every odd thing you find in religion down to "HURP DERP YOU THINK INVISIBLE SKY MAN TELL YOU NO DO THAT" isn't any better than someone looking at you and thinking that the only reason you think/believe what you think/believe is that you're a godless heathen.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

I like to look at it this way:

When Moses walked the earth, we cooked our meals on open fires and lived in huts.
Today, we cook our meals in microwaves and live in homes.

Why don't we cook our meals on open fires or live in huts anymore?
Because we found better ways of living.

Still, what we have today, we owe to those who came before us and brought us to this point. And future generations will push the human condition forward into a new era of greatness. Or so we hope.

If you still cook your meals on an open fire or live in a hut, you're either backward or dense, but we can all still appreciate a BBQ or Sukkot. And there is useful insight to be gained from studying those who came before us and overcame those challenges so that we could live better lives.

The same is true of religion.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Hey Jubber, how do you feel about killing someone to protect your family?

I mean, I'm pretty sure the woman down the street might be casting hexes on my children. Does this mean that I can bar all of the doors and windows and then burn her house down?

Don't try to tell me its a blatant, heartless act of violence. I sincerely believe in it, so don't legislate my religion, you facist.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

Burning someone's house down = being a derp and refusing your child medical care by reason of religion???



From a moral sense, I agree with you Mayo. From a legal standpoint, it's not murder. Get over it.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

From a legal standpoint you've willfully and intentionally caused the death of another. The only reason it's still considered manslaughter in this country is because of the velvet gloves concerning religion.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

So your argument is that in order to protect one person's freedom of religion, we have to allow them to violate another person's freedom of religion, and their rights to life and liberty as well? Whether it is heartless or violent isn't a matter for consideration. I'm sure there are a few people (hello, San Francisco) who think that the Bris Milah is heartless and/or violent. We still allow that and many other religious practices that certain people would find appalling. However, I can't think of a single case where we allow those religious practices to impose on the rights of anyone other than the practitioners.



So between what I said and Morgan Freeman's ownership of festival confections, I think I've made my case.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

The child of a religious nut-job has no right to life or liberty, got it. It's totally ok to kill someone as long as it's your familiy and god tells you to, I'm glad you cleared that up for us.



I can't hunt on Sunday.

Until very recently I couldn't buy alcohol on Sunday.

I can't marry another man.

The only reason for all three of those are religion.

Dvergar /
Quisling

I think it is generally accepted that the rights of children are limited in our society and many others, and for good reason. Just as parents can choose to not inoculate their children against disease because 'vaccines will make them autistic,' they can also make other decisions for their child without their input until they reach the age of majority. Questionable decision making (and what's 'questionable' is subjective) isn't limited to people who follow religious teachings. Again, in the example of refusing blood transfusions, you over-simplify. The Jehovah's Witness does not accept transfusions, even of their own blood, because they consider it to be ingesting the flesh of a human being; in other words, cannibalism. While I agree that their interpretation is a bit odd, I understand it, and furthermore think that abstaining from cannibalism is not strictly a religious proscription. You and Mayo amuse me because while you sit there condemning certain religious practices as ignorant, foolish, and wrong, your rantings betray your ignorance of the practices you're attempting to decry, and only serve to prove that the only discernible difference between an atheist and any kind of theist are the subjects they choose to be an ignorant, pigheaded jackass about.



I'll grant that the first two are only because of religion, but as sad as it may be, it's not just religious people who are down on homosexuality. I have never agreed with the idea of limiting anyone's personal habits/hobbies/life choices on Sunday (and oddly enough there is a passage in the New Testament wherein Jesus chastises the pharisees for their condemnation of those who work to feed themselves on the Sabbath), and one of the big reasons I bought my first home in FL instead of GA was because I couldn't buy alcohol on Sunday. I think that is patently ridiculous, especially when the holy manuscript informing this practice includes a tale of how Christ turned water to wine for a party.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Can't hunt on Sunday? That's odd.

Yeah, because the whole forcing children to waste away for no reason isn't anything to get adamant about.

PS:

Are you even reading what you post?

EDIT: I suppose you're still campaigning for that woman who drowned all of her kids because God told her to to be freed? I mean, her kids didn't have rights and she was practicing the first amendment.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

On a moral ground, them believing that blood transfusions are somehow surviving off of the consumption of another human being, yeah i guess i can understand why they don't want to do it.

Not that I agree with their assessment of transfusions, by any means.

Still, thats way different from GOD TOLD ME TO SET THIS CHILD ON FIRE crazy.

If they want to kill themselves by refusing transfusions, that's one thing. Making that decision for a child, especially if that child wants to have said transfusion, is still the murder of a child due to religious beliefs. Its on the same level as honor killings and child sacrifice.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

What does...

have to do with.......?

Not wanting children to be abused/neglected isn't what makes you ignorant. You seem to be under the impression that Christians are somehow obligated to continue practices set forth under Old Testament law that are contradicted by Christ's teachings in the New Testament...like 'burning witches,' which is directly contradicted by, at the very least, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." While this is understandable given that you're under that impression because people who identify themselves as Christians make a big deal about those Old Testament laws, you're making the mistake of thinking that it's religion that makes people stupid, and not people being too stupid and/or ignorant of their own religion to get it right.

Dvergar and you both seem to be under the impression that Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions because "God said so," despite having their reasoning for abstaining from the practice explained to you twice.



So now your argument is that someone making a difficult moral decision is the same as someone who is most likely schizophrenic doing something abhorrent because they're mentally ill? I also did not say children had no rights, I said they had limited rights, and that's a considerable distinction. There is also, as I think was stated at least once before, a very large difference between intentionally killing someone outright and allowing them to die of natural causes, and it's one that you've ignored in every scenario that you've suggested is morally equivalent to refusing medical services for a child. You've also gone out of your way to make every scenario you've suggest as extreme or insane as you possibly can imagine, which does little to lend any sort of credence to your position.

Maybe if we labeled deaths resulting from refusing medical services to children as "extremely late-term abortion," you wouldn't be so adamantly 'pro-life/anti-choice' (I can do ridiculously stupid and inflammatory arguments, too, since you seem to understand those so well).

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Hey! Just like Republicans and what they think of Islam, amirite?

Back on topic:

I think all of you are confusing where the other side stands. Jubber, they understand the reasoning behind the Jehovah's Witnesses choice, but they believe that it is as stupid as <insert an example they used here> but is accepted on the basis of religion while other similar scenarios are not. Dvergar/Mayo, I believe Jubber has explained more than a few times that it's not okay to let children die (duh), but there are reasons other than "God told me so" that contribute to these peoples' beliefs.

I am, again, advocating a gray-area thinking style. By this I mean that "freedom of religion" as a core right of all Americans should be the rule of the land WITH A FEW EXCEPTIONS which violate the rights of another (isn't that what it is now anyway?) Here is what I mean in context:
- Practice Islam all you want, build your Mosques wherever it is legal to do so, etc but do NOT stone people in the marketplace for your durka-durka reasons.
- Practice Christianity all you want, spread the word in a peaceful way, but do NOT burn people you think are witches and do NOT try and legislate your damn beliefs (fuck you, Mississippi).
- Practice your Jehovah's Witnesses flavor of Christianity all you want, but do NOT deny blood transfusions for your kids IF THEY EXPRESS DESIRE FOR THEM, thereby placing aside their religious beliefs (and don't drown them in a lake afterwards, you crazies).

Inb4 "slippery slope" nonsense. If practices related to your religion are infringing upon my and my fellow citizen's core rights, fuck you and your religion.

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I got a fevah. And the only cure is more straw men!

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming