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 Post subject: Re: "...vicious, negative, destructive..."
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:50 pm  
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French Faggot
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Edit: Nevermind - I don't expect you to have an intelligent thought or opinion on anything in this or any other thread.


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 Post subject: Re: "...vicious, negative, destructive..."
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:48 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
Candidates of both parties have always promised to go back to the Moon and Mars in every election since Carter. They do it because making the promise is free, no one is passionately opposed to space exploration, and no one will really care when they don't follow through.




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 Post subject: Re: "...vicious, negative, destructive..."
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:50 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Azelma wrote:
The problem with space travel is that it isn't profitable...yet.

YIf we could get resources from space that could be used for energy or something...or mass colonization...then I'd agree with your "privatize space travel" idea...and it would probably happen naturally anyway as wealthy investors would think "oh shit space rocks can create energy and can be sold....I need to get in on that...here random startup company have some $$$$$$$" or whatever the case may be.

As such, it's all research and exploration, and therefore has to survive on government funding and other donations with no expectation for profits.


It's definitely profitable. Orbital factories could produce power and manufactured goods such as ball bearings, microchips and medical supplies for a fraction the cost of production on Earth. A price advantage along the lines of several orders of magnitude. Owning an orbital factory would be a license to print money.

It would just require massive investment. American business is incredibly myopic. Why invest when you can exploit?

Communication and weather satelites were developed and launched by the government, just like the internet and the highway system. Contrary to what so-called "free market" types like to believe, businesses are not always better guardians of their long-term self-interest and profitability than the government.

Weena wrote:
In any case, government rewards are unnecessary. If an idea is good, in that it's something people require or desire, then profit is your (monetary) reward.


Translation: Communism works.

(also see: Jim Crow)


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: "...vicious, negative, destructive..."
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:43 pm  
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Fat Bottomed Faggot
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How do you translate a basic tenet of capitalism into communism?

And what do Jim Crow laws have to do with anything?


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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 Post subject: Re: "...vicious, negative, destructive..."
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:09 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu wrote:
It would just require massive investment. American business is incredibly myopic. Why invest when you can exploit?


Sometimes it seems like you just hate the private sector, and it clouds your judgement. If it were as profitable as you say, private companies and investors would throw money at it. Even if the investment costs were absolutely enormous, if it was as simple to get an ROI as you claim, you don't think angel investors would get together and fund some companies to go for it?

You can't honestly believe your hyperbole about exploitation....can you?

The fact is, it's not profitable right now. If there were a clear, guaranteed way to get profits from investing in space exploration, investors would invest. Those with wealth aren't all pure evil, hell bent on exploiting everything.... though the media and government might have you believe that.

Aestu wrote:
Communication and weather satelites were developed and launched by the government, just like the internet and the highway system. Contrary to what so-called "free market" types like to believe, businesses are not always better guardians of their long-term self-interest and profitability than the government.


Agree 100%. For developing new technologies, exploring new things...the government is necessary to use tax dollars (obtained because of the private sector) to fund said research. This is because the private sector has no motivation to do it, because there is no clear profit to be had.

Once the research is conducted, and there is profit to be had, the private sector takes over, competition sets in, and congrats, a new industry is born that the government can tax and regulate! (though government intervention it should always be within reason and never to the detriment of the industry as a whole).

Case and point: the internet.

It will happen with space. But not yet.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: "...vicious, negative, destructive..."
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:55 am  
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There's nothing on the moon worth mining that we've found yet. we can't get anywhere else and back fast enough to have a manned crew do it. This shit is a pipe dream until we get a better propulsion system.


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 Post subject: Re: "...vicious, negative, destructive..."
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:20 am  
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Azelma wrote:
You can't honestly believe your hyperbole about exploitation....can you?

Why throw hundreds of millions (if not billions) of dollars at a space factory when you can use a fraction of that to move to china and abuse wage slavery or lobby congress to demolish the protections of the working class instead?

There also isn't hundreds of years of proof that big business would rather exploit every loophole and shortcut to maintain the status quo than to change.

EDIT:
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Those with wealth aren't all pure evil, hell bent on exploiting everything....

True, but a large percentage of them aren't nice. Just look at the republican/libertarian talking points being parroted in the election. The reinstatement of child labor, the neutering of government regulatory agencies, the abolition of taxes for the ultra-rich, and the breaking down of unions aren't for your best interest, you know.


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 Post subject: Re: "...vicious, negative, destructive..."
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:25 am  
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Quote:
Eturnal's question didn't seem trollish to me at all.


Hating an idea when a democrat says it but being on board the minute a republican says the exact same thing would be excusable if you were just trolling, it would be just plain retarded if you weren't.

Quote:
You guys will never know how megatrolling works, apparently.


Psh, what do you know about megatrolling? Nothing you've done compares to my time as Vezir.


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 Post subject: Re: "...vicious, negative, destructive..."
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:39 am  
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Obama Zombie
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Dvergar wrote:
Quote:
Eturnal's question didn't seem trollish to me at all.

Hating an idea when a democrat says it but being on board the minute a republican says the exact same thing would be excusable if you were just trolling, it would be just plain retarded if you weren't.

I just asked for FUBUs opinions on an idea that Newt brought up during the debate since this thread is about Newt Gingrich and it immediately followed the segue into space talk (which Newt proposed this idea when debating about space and whatever else). I didn't create the idea nor did I express my support for or against the idea. You retards were just jumping to conclusions and making shit up as if I said it.

But, since you say I support Newt on this matter I guess you'd like to tell me which Democrat I'm not supporting and what that Democrat's idea is exactly?
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 Post subject: Re: "...vicious, negative, destructive..."
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:02 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Mns wrote:
There also isn't hundreds of years of proof that big business would rather exploit every loophole and shortcut to maintain the status quo than to change.


I don't consider entrepreneurs to be "Big Business" We aren't talking about BP trying to go to space and make money off it...clearly they have no motivation to due so. This is also why they are moving slow as shit on hydrogen power etc. We're talking about wealthy investors funding startups to go into space and start farming moon rocks or whatever. It's just not profitable, or far along enough technologically, for either "Big Business" or trailblazing entrepreneurs to get into it yet.

My brother in law works for this company: http://www.oceanpowertechnologies.com/ It had it's IPO, but started as a private company funded by a few rich men.

They are working on capturing wave energy to generate power. They can exist because, while they can barely generate enough power with the Buoys to run themselves, the technology is there and it has the potential to be extremely profitable (when they figure out how to generate an ass ton of energy). This type of company model just isn't ready for space yet because the technology isn't there.

Mns wrote:
Why throw hundreds of millions (if not billions) of dollars at a space factory when you can use a fraction of that to move to china and abuse wage slavery or lobby congress to demolish the protections of the working class instead?


You and Aestu are just demonizing all business for what some morally bankrupt corporations and executives do. I don't think Nike or Apple would really be interested in space exploration anyway. If any "Big Business" was going to get into it, it would be oil and energy companies. From my knowledge, these businesses don't utilize too much child labor.

And you're right, why throw hundreds of millions of dollars at something that has literally zero chance of turning a profit?


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: "...vicious, negative, destructive..."
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:25 am  
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Weena wrote:
How do you translate a basic tenet of capitalism into communism?


Your argument is Communist in that you are making the argument that the unpleasant realities of human nature will give way and people will always act in a rational, enlightened and socially appropriate manner, without being compelled to do so.

Weena wrote:
And what do Jim Crow laws have to do with anything?


Under Jim Crow you could hire a black man for a tenth the cost of a white man and make all kinds of unreasonable impositions because his back is to the wall and no one else will employ him, but that doesn't change the fact no one did it until the government forced them to.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: "...vicious, negative, destructive..."
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:36 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Azelma wrote:
Sometimes it seems like you just hate the private sector, and it clouds your judgement.


You are choosing to see only the reflection of your own views. I've never missed a chance to express my distrust of government, and honestly I have far less malice towards the for-profit world than I do towards the non-profit world.

I appreciate the power of the private sector. You believe that the private sector is the end. I believe it is the means. That is the fundamental difference between our views.

Azelma wrote:
If it were as profitable as you say, private companies and investors would throw money at it. Even if the investment costs were absolutely enormous, if it was as simple to get an ROI as you claim, you don't think angel investors would get together and fund some companies to go for it?


Communist argument detected

Azelma wrote:
You can't honestly believe your hyperbole about exploitation....can you?


You are ignorant.

Azelma wrote:
The fact is, it's not profitable right now. If there were a clear, guaranteed way to get profits from investing in space exploration, investors would invest. Those with wealth aren't all pure evil, hell bent on exploiting everything.... though the media and government might have you believe that.


Profitability is not inelastic. There's this thing called capital investment. Go back to Macroeconomics 101.

Azelma wrote:
Aestu wrote:
Communication and weather satelites were developed and launched by the government, just like the internet and the highway system. Contrary to what so-called "free market" types like to believe, businesses are not always better guardians of their long-term self-interest and profitability than the government.


Agree 100%. For developing new technologies, exploring new things...the government is necessary to use tax dollars (obtained because of the private sector) to fund said research. This is because the private sector has no motivation to do it, because there is no clear profit to be had.


Which is why they're making a profit off those things now? Durp.

Private industry: Take handouts and call it profit. Pay taxes and call it extortion. Fail to short-sightedness and blame government. Then beg for more handouts.

Azelma wrote:
Once the research is conducted, and there is profit to be had, the private sector takes over, competition sets in, and congrats, a new industry is born that the government can tax and regulate! (though government intervention it should always be within reason and never to the detriment of the industry as a whole).


So why don't they do their own research?

Azelma wrote:
It will happen with space. But not yet.


Because the government hasn't laid down that yellow brick road, "yet".

We have the technology, what we don't have is the investment and infrastructure. Corps don't want to spend the money for the reasons Mayo described. Government won't because people seem fine with paying extortionate sums for military deployments in areas of no interest to anyone except the corps and paying outrageous sums for basic services "because profit" but won't accept a fraction of a percent increase in their total taxation that would be enough to pay for a massive push sufficient to change our lives as radically as the Internet did.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: "...vicious, negative, destructive..."
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:51 am  
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Usdk wrote:
we can't get anywhere else and back fast enough to have a manned crew do it. This shit is a pipe dream until we get a better propulsion system.


I'm talking about the solar, not interstellar travel.

How long does it take to make a bottle of wine? How long does it take to build a large ship? How long does it take to develop a new computing application? The better part of a decade?

Round trip to the Moon and back takes a week.
Round trip to Mars and back would take a year or two.
Round trip to Titan and back would take 5-10 years.

Usdk wrote:
There's nothing on the moon worth mining that we've found yet.


The greatest resource on the Moon is the Moon itself.

There is no air and very little gravity. Hence my examples about things like solar power, ball bearings, medical supplies and microchips. These are things that are very expensive and difficult to produce on Earth because of gravity, air and the presence of bacteria. Building facilities to remove those factors - clean rooms, insulated structures, vacuum chambers - costs billions annually.

On the Moon, for example, we could produce syringes and antibiotics in the open, without the need for sterilization procedures or artificial vacuums. We could produce absolutely perfect ball bearings built to specifications all but impossible on earth, allowing us to build lighter and more powerful motorized equipment. Camera lenses with magnification orders of magnitude superior to what is now on the shelf.

Also consider the cost of just moving things around on Earth - conveyor belts, forklifts, backhoes, haulers, etc. Energy costs. On the moon, or in space, extremely massive objects could be moved around for almost no energy cost. Think how much energy it takes, for example, to do the heavy lifting involved in building battle tanks, or prefabricated buildings, or building a heavy piece of equipment like a dragline or a cement mixer. Imagine if all those energy costs, everywhere in the world, were instantly reduced by 90%. That's a lot of energy - a lot of cash saved.

Because there is no atmosphere, solar panels would yield far more power, power that could be repackaged into energy-intensive industrial goods such as refined metals and industrial equipment. Because there is no weather, solar panels, pipelines and other infrastructure would never dilapidated.

There are also the environmental benefits. Fields that require working with substances that are incredibly dangerous, like radioactive isotopes and heavy metals, could do their work in the open and keep their materials in large open pools, without having to take precautions to prevent radioactivity or heavy metals from leeching into groundwater. Because the Moon has far less tectonic activity than the Earth, materials would remain stable for long periods. My argument here isn't environmental - it's economic, it's how much cheaper it would be to work with dangerous substances without the need to spend money on precautions.

In short, lunar industry would be to the Industrial Age what the Internet was to the invention of the alphabet. Within a century, we could potentially see the cost of any and all manufactured goods - almost everything we use on a day to day basis - cut to a fraction of what it is now.

And whoever owns that infrastructure will attain a degree of wealth previously beyond imagining. You think Bill Gates is loaded. Imagine if he got a dollar whenever anyone, anywhere, buys anything that costs more than two dollars.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: "...vicious, negative, destructive..."
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:57 am  
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Dvergar wrote:
Quote:
Eturnal's question didn't seem trollish to me at all.

Hating an idea when a democrat says it but being on board the minute a republican says the exact same thing would be excusable if you were just trolling, it would be just plain retarded if you weren't.

I just asked for FUBUs opinions on an idea that Newt brought up during the debate since this thread is about Newt Gingrich and it immediately followed the segue into space talk (which Newt proposed this idea when debating about space and whatever else). I didn't create the idea nor did I express my support for or against the idea. You retards were just jumping to conclusions and making shit up as if I said it.

But, since you say I support Newt on this matter I guess you'd like to tell me which Democrat I'm not supporting and what that Democrat's idea is exactly?


You support it in that you do not oppose it immediately after having criticized Obama for exactly the same idea.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: "...vicious, negative, destructive..."
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:00 am  
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Aestu wrote:
So why don't they do their own research?


Aestu wrote:
Because the government hasn't laid down that yellow brick road, "yet".


You answered your own question. This is where the private sector fails.

Aestu wrote:
Azelma wrote:
If it were as profitable as you say, private companies and investors would throw money at it. Even if the investment costs were absolutely enormous, if it was as simple to get an ROI as you claim, you don't think angel investors would get together and fund some companies to go for it?



Communist argument detected


How is that communist? Investors get together all the time to fund a company. They then have percentage ownership or stocks so they can get returns on their investment.

5 millionaires putting their money together > one millionaire and his money

Aestu wrote:
I appreciate the power of the private sector. You believe that the private sector is the end. I believe it is the means. That is the fundamental difference between our views.


Please re-read what I wrote here:

Azelma wrote:
For developing new technologies, exploring new things...the government is necessary to use tax dollars (obtained because of the private sector) to fund said research. This is because the private sector has no motivation to do it, because there is no clear profit to be had.

Once the research is conducted, and there is profit to be had, the private sector takes over, competition sets in, and congrats, a new industry is born that the government can tax and regulate!


I appreciate the power of the government sector for funding research projects. I appreciate the private sector for making it all economically viable, and of course fostering competition (which ultimately helps the consumer).

Aestu wrote:
Profitability is not inelastic. There's this thing called capital investment. Go back to Macroeconomics 101.


Apologies if I wasn't clear enough. You were arguing that space exploration is profitable right now. It is not. I was saying that if it were that profitable, people would be investing in it. Capital investment in space travel is too risky right now. When will you be able to see a return? How long will it take the technology to start generating serious revenue?

A person would have to have primarily philanthropic motivations to invest in space exploration right now, because from a return standpoint...it's just not there. Of course there are many investors that don't need to get returns RIGHT NOW, but they need to be convinced they will get returns eventually (from an IPO or otherwise), and even this is lacking with the current space exploration vertical.


Azelma

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