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It's not the baby's fault its mother was raped, but its not the mother's fault either. You're saying society should further punish the rape victim by forcing her to keep the child of the man who raped her to full term? That's ludicrous.

Guess what, though? It isn't the baby's decision. It isn't even self-aware. If the mother wants to end it before it gets a chance to live, oh well (I'm talking first trimester abortions, btw). It won't know what it's missing, amirite?? Just like if she were to miscarry for any other reason.

I guess you can always think to yourself there is a special place whatever god you believe in reserves for aborted babies, and a special place reserved for the selfish women who would dare to abort an unwanted pregnancy-- if it makes you feel better.

Most of this discussion is pointless anyway, considering early term abortions are completely legal.

Akiina - Priest - Royal Militia
Leeloo Minai Lekarariba-Laminai-Tchai Ekbat De Sebat

There's no worse feeling than that millisecond you're sure you are going to die after leaning your chair back a little too far.

For starters, the child won't have much of a life even if he makes it. Second, it's not a child yet if you nip it in the bud.

And if I really want to be a dick about it (I don't, I'm saying this because it's fun to be offensive), it's partially the kid's fault since he was the fastest sperm and made it to the egg.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

You're right - It might not be the mother's fault if she was raped but would aborting a child make the memory of the rape disappear? That memory would be with her for the rest of her life. If she had a conscious (unlike yourself) then so would the murder of the unborn child.

But you're right - it isn't the child's decision. Fortunately for you, your parents weren't as selfish as you would be. Your parents gave you a chance and you would forsake another their chance at life just so you could party on the weekends, not lose your figure or have to birth a child and give it up for adoption.

Another thing I find silly is your argument is first trimester babies aren't self-aware; either are newborns. Does that make a newborn fair game for murder? Should you be able to suck their face up a vacuum because you're so upset with the stretch marks you received?

And I don't know how clearer I can make it; my position on this issue isn't religious since I'm not a religious person. This is purely driven by my morals and that an innocent child that, as you say, isn't even self-aware is being murdered because of some selfish mother. As for the mothers who abort their children for selfish reasons... I hope they too end up like this.

Not pointless because, at least for me, I'm talking about the morality (religion and bible-bashers aside) of abortion. Legality and Morality (Legal does not = Moral and vice-versa) are two separate things, which I'm sure you, being an intelligent woman, would understand.


We can all agree (I hope) it's wrong to kill another innocent human being. If someone were to walk over to my desk right now and slash my throat, unprovoked, for no reason, that person would be wrong. It would be murder.

Do unborn fetuses count as an innocent human being to you?

When does a human life "officially" become a human worthy of all the rights to life that I have?

Does it begin when sperm meets egg and the thing has 46 chromosomes (the number that humans have)
Does it begin, as some here have said, with a heartbeat?
Does it begin as others have claimed when that entity is able to be separated from its host and sustained by something other than the host?
Does it begin when the child has reached a state of "cognitive awareness?" (whenever that is...I dunno about you, but I don't remember shit from my first few weeks outside the womb..let alone my first few years)
Does it begin when the child first says something or does something demonstrating human intelligence?

Depending on your answer to this question, I think that should ultimately determine your stance on the moral correctness of abortion. If you think it's a human life, then aborting it can be nothing other than murder. Just as I have a human life, and it would be murder to kill me.

Self-awareness isn't part of my argument, it's just a fact that makes it seem silly to argue that the baby will somehow be offended when the mother decides to have an abortion.

I wasn't a mistake-- I was a planned baby, my parents had been together for 10 years and had stable professions that allowed them to give me what I needed as a child. Maybe you're taking this to a personal level for other reasons, were your children accidents? Were you or one of your siblings? If you kept a child you didn't plan, or know of someone who wasn't planned, great-- amazing, congratulations. It isn't uncommon. I'm not saying women shouldn't have unplanned babies. I'm saying there should be a choice involved, and there is.

The memory of the rape doesn't disappear after an abortion, but the baby does-- which seems like it would be a much more serious reminder of the rape even if you gave it up for adoption.

You're also assuming that all abortions performed in the world are simply because some little girl who got accidentally knocked up wants to keep partying, which is pretty ignorant.

Akiina - Priest - Royal Militia
Leeloo Minai Lekarariba-Laminai-Tchai Ekbat De Sebat

There's no worse feeling than that millisecond you're sure you are going to die after leaning your chair back a little too far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping ... Lee_Dugard


Take from it what you will.

Would anyone care if they were murdered? To care means they would have to continue to exist. Just because you're self-aware does that mean you'll care if someone spread your brains all over a wall? If your consciousness did exist after your body dies I'm sure you'd be pretty pissed if your chance at life was forfeit because someone decided you shouldn't live.

Since you want to get on a personal level my wife and I are much like your parents. We own a home, we have a lot of money, we've been married for quite some time now, we have great jobs and we're ready to have children. Neither of us had any unwanted pregnancies in our families, either. Perhaps I have this view because I was raised to value other human lives and I can understand that it's wrong to end a life for selfish reasons.

And I'm not assuming all aborted children are because some girl got knocked up accidentally. I'm not assuming all women who abort their children are raped and have to live with that memory, either.

Clearly the child won't have any idea. The only thing I wonder sometimes is...what if the next Albert Einstein was aborted? What if the person who could cure AIDs came at an inconvenient time in his mother's life and so he got sucked out through a tube? What if the next Mozart is lying in a trash bin somewhere because his mom and dad were too selfish to deal with the consequences of using no protection (46% of all abortions are done by women who used no contraceptive at the time)

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html






http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

Rape/Incest is an oft-cited circumstance that is clearly an exception to the rule (and I feel a just-exception/reason for abortion)...however shouldn't be used as the sole reason that abortion should be 100% legal in every circumstance.

Clearly not all abortions are gotten by stupid girls, but a majority of them are women who just don't want the burden for whatever reason, or were being unsafe (as I showed in the previous statistics...46% were done by women who were not using contraceptive....abortion is a mulligan for many...a selfish mulligan. If you aren't even wrapping it up, WTF...).

I understand, Azelma. I was just trying to elaborate my position a little more than how I had originally stated it, and I wanted to respond to a couple comments that really stood out to me.

We have different opinions.

Akiina - Priest - Royal Militia
Leeloo Minai Lekarariba-Laminai-Tchai Ekbat De Sebat

There's no worse feeling than that millisecond you're sure you are going to die after leaning your chair back a little too far.

Retarded people, albeit handicapped, still live life. They can do stuff with their family, hang with the few friends they'll be lucky to have, go places, see thing. People who are completely void of any function at all aren't alive, they're being kept alive via machines by people who don't want to let them go. I'm not talking about "granny's sick, let's go visit her and chat", I mean the people who are literally vegetables.

It sounds heartless, but they aren't alive, and there isn't a sane soul who would want to be in that state because you're better off dead.

Says the guy who's totally on board with capital punishment, which is glorified revenge and necessarily selfish.

You value some human lives. Some. You've made this abundantly clear.

Akiina obviously values different ones.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

You're right. I have made it clear. I have no respect for others who are selfish enough to kill or rape another person for no good reason. If a rapist or murderer dies I have no pity for them. They committed a heinous crime and they deserve that punishment.

A baby is different. A baby didn't murder anyone. They didn't rape anyone. They haven't even had the chance to see the outside of a womb. Yet they're murdered by their mother because, in most cases, the mother is a selfish cunt... and you guys are OK with this?

All Akiina values is her life and her ability to live it how she wants and she's made it clear she wouldn't mind killing an innocent child to live that life.

You are such a self-righteous prick.

Learn some fucking tact.

ITT: Pro-choicer gets mad; calls pro-lifer self-righteous prick. More at 11.