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Aestu · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:26 pm

Azelma wrote:

Aestu wrote:

And what if it didn't pay off? That's a question you've yet to answer.

You really want me to answer a "What if?" question? What if the sun blew up? What if god was one of us? What if the world's supply of corn oil dried up?

You're implying the scenario is ridiculous. This is "I got mine". "

"Things not working out for ME? Unthinkable! Impossible! I'm fine here and now so I'd ALWAYS be fine!"

Azelma wrote:

I'll humor you, though. If I didn't have multiple job offers out of college I most likely would have tried to either move back home while I worked a shitty job (movie theatre or restaurant) to save up and move out, or take on a roommate to split the cost of a shitty apartment. I would have not stopped looking for work...I probably would have been able to obtain gainful employment at some point during my 6 month grace period. If at the end of 6 months I still had no job prospects, I would have taken steps to defer my loan payments for another 3 months (relatively easy to do that now), and I would continue to pound the pavement and use any other resources I could think of to obtain employment.

Bottom line, I would have gotten a job come hell or high water.

Why do you think you'd do better than the millions who are in that position in the here and now?

Azelma wrote:

Aestu wrote:

As to choice of major, that was a decision made for me when I was a kid, and it couldn't be changed.

I'm pretty sure people change majors all the time in college....

In any event, why couldn't it be changed? Why didn't you have a say in it? Would your parents have stopped paying for college if you changed it? Why not tell them to "fuck off" and then do your whole community college route to save money? You could have gotten personal loans I'm sure. With your intelligence and arguing ability I'm sure you could have convinced some bank to give you a loan (this was also before the bubble burst so banks would have been more willing).

When I was 16, I was a kid. There's a long narrative I can forward you if you really want to read it about what happened when I tried to change majors.

In my sophomore year of college, I had a nervous breakdown precipitated by the unsuppportive relationship with my parents, Fatal Attraction, a fat ugly bitch landlord who hated me because I had the gall to run a business from my dorm room, and excessive workload (commuting from Sac to SF for a job while also running an eBay business and crashing ancient Greek). I'm still picking up the pieces from that episode.

I considered the loan option and rejected it because, unlike you, I'm not a fool, and I know that there are no sure things and I'm not so wise I can foresee all outcomes. If I don't like my parents telling me what to do, I'm damn sure I'd like the bank telling me what to do even less. Like I said, millions of people made that same gamble and it didn't pay off. At worst, I'd be back in my parents hands again with their burden doubled.

Loans aren't there to help you. They're there to help the bank.

Azelma wrote:

Aestu wrote:

My parents made serious mistakes that I still pay for, compounded by enormous misfortune and adversity. I've had three jobs and two other activities that I performed well with but can't capitalize on for reasons I have no control over.

Keep blaming others if it makes you feel better. I don't doubt that your parents were possibly a major pain in the ass (I would expect nothing less of two people who spawned the man we know as Aestu)....but you continue to blame them for everything that's wrong with your life. Instead of sitting and blaming, why aren't you trying to succeed in spite of the obstacles they placed in your path? I succeeded in spite of the problems my mother posed for me growing up.

Azelma, you know me well enough to know that I value control and self-determination, and that I accept being undone by my own errors with a lot more grace than I do being undone by the errors of people I can't control.

You don't know what I have or haven't been doing. But I'll tell you: I've been seeking letters of recommendation (having met with many stabs in the back here for a variety of reasons), and working on apping to graduate school (incredibly frustrating given how many schools I've attended and thus the huge amount of paperwork required), and applying to PeaceCorps and the Foreign Service (rejected because "you are qualified but we have others who are more so...all the other people in the same shoes you are but slightly more fortunate") while looking for a job. Some people here have been party to these efforts.

The clerical jobs on Craigslist, with no job security, extreme competition, on-call hours, and requiring both a college degree and many of the skills I possess in abundance, pay minimum wage (which in Boston is less than a living wage because of how costly food and housing is). I apped for some anyway. Never heard back.

Even if I did get such a job, I'd be reliant on either my parents or credit, or I'd be reduced to eating Ramen three meals a day and living in a telephone booth (which might make for cool bragging rights but wouldn't do anything else) and with no vertical mobility. So what difference does it really make?

Azelma wrote:

Aestu wrote:

What do you see my parents bought for me that you didn't have?

Your education, for one.

You also have a bachelors. And you admit it didn't do anything for you either.

Azelma wrote:

Your reading comprehension seems to need some work, as does mine (as cited by the Adam Smith issues). Want to be study buddies?

Answer my questions on page 5 you keep ducking.

Azelma · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:51 pm

Kayllaira · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:58 pm

On the subject of loans, you can't tell the future and determine if you're going to be able to pay them back or whether or not they'll "pay off" in the end in terms of landing a good job. But if I don't take out loans, I get no education without putting my life on hold for another 4 or 5 years to save up for tuition - which keeps increasing. Personally, I'd like to have a career so I can get married and start a family before I'm 30, so taking out 6-7k in loans is a chance I'm willing to take. Especially since many hospitals have a tuition reimbursement program. If they didn't, I'd still have a better chance of being able to afford $6-7k *after* getting a degree than *before*. Besides, I won't be able to afford a house up front and there's no guarantee that I will ALWAYS have a job. Does that mean I shouldn't take out a mortgage?

Aestu · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:59 pm

Azelma wrote:

1. I'm not sure what is meant by this but at least the last part, gold is a hard thing to fake. One cannot simply print gold out of thin air, as they can for fiat-based currencies. This is what makes a gold-based standard much more rigid for governments. While they can find more gold, it is much much more difficult than just going down to the printing presses and saying ok here is another trillion dollars. I mean look at the value of the dollar since 1913! http://www.aier.org/images/stories/char ... ppd_lg.png

Value of the dollar has nothing to do with my point which is that government can just get more gold one way or the other, and that is what governments have done when they needed it.

Azelma wrote:

2. Not sure if i would call the EU a 'success story' given that a bunch of the countries are on the verge of default and are economic basket cases. I mean they are going to have to put more than a trillion dollars into a fund in order to make sure a bunch don't default, HOW is that a success? Japan is also a total mess and is only still afloat because people in that nation save so much of their income and are willing to invest in low yielding JGBs. Please also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_a ... ice_bubble

Bubbles are a fact of economic life and have been since long before we went off the gold standard. There were several panics in the late 19th century.

The only EU country in serious trouble is Greece, which has a population of 11 million (less than many American states). Germany and France are some of the strongest economies in the world. Insofar as there is a problem, it's due to irresponsible lending. Putting the EU back on the gold standard wouldn't change that.

Azelma wrote:

3. My point is that governments have no management skills over the long term; they are always concerned about the next election and are focused on giving people as much in benefits as possible with no regard for long term health. This is human nature, and is why fiat based currency systems ALWAYS fall throughout history. See this article for more on this http://dailyreckoning.com/fiat-currency/
OR

Read up on the Mississippi bubble for an example of how governments can never seem to maintain control of their money supplies.

Quote:

In 1719 Law created a plan to restructure the French national debt under the Mississippi Company's auspices, exchanging company shares for debt and guaranteeing significant profits. Investors flocked, the national bank (now effectively owned by Law) printed money in response and massive inflation ensued. A bank run followed in May 1721 and the French treasury admitted that it did not have enough metallic currency to cover its paper instruments. It attempted to devalue Mississippi Company shares to no avail and finally the bank stopped paying in coinage. Shares in the company quickly plummeted to zero, the company was overtaken and divested of its assets divested and Law went into exile once more.

Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/mis ... z1bvJ0jWrt

This is a non sequitor. The Mississippi Bubble (which was caused by speculation on a privately held corporation) has nothing to do with my point that many other things happened during the 1970s besides Nixon ending the gold standard.

Azelma wrote:

4. That's kind of the point, the government couldn't do anything about it. Plus, I'm not so sure that this would allow anyone to 'run' the currency as it would just cause a bout of deflation if anything, and nothing more.

Alan Greenspan wrote:

In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation […] Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the “hidden” confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. Gold and Economic Freedom (1968)

"a bout of deflation and nothing more". Uhh, no. If you back the currency with gold, and the amount of gold on the market increases while the value of the economy remains constant, the result is inflation - each gold-backed dollar buys less.

So...you'd be okay with massive, RANDOM, totally unpredictable inflation whenever someone hits the mother lode or some third world country gets the idea of flooding the market with currency? Example: When Qadafi fled Libya, he did a spot sale on 143 tons of gold. If we were on the gold standard, that would be enough to cause an inflationary shockwave.

Who would be running the currency? Whoever puts the new gold on the market, that's who.

Azelma wrote:

5. Not sure why this would happen in a gold standard and not during any other economic issues like the one we are currently facing. People hoard things when the going gets tough that is just what happens when confidence is low. However, you said "Meaning, assuming there was growth, the currency would deflate quickly (incentivizing the hoarding of gold instead of investment of capital)" why would people choose to hold on to gold when it is deflating? Why would someone hoard a depreciating asset? Seems to me that during this type of scenario demand for gold would fall and investment in capital would accelerate........

Inflation incentivizes investment because it prevents hoarding of capital. "Use it or lose it". Opportunity cost at its finest.

You apparently don't know what deflation is. When currency deflates, its value appreciates (increases). If the currency is backed by gold and its value is on the rise, there's a strong incentive to hold onto it because it will buy more and more.

...what did you major in again?

Azelma wrote:

6. This flat out isn't true... The list of biggest holders of gold is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve the list is a who's who of economic powers with nations such as the US, Germany, China, France, etc. all in the top ten. Furthermore, gold makes such a great medium because it doesn't have any other uses, unlike oil. The primary use of gold can be as a medium for exchange because it won't screw up the economy, as it isn't used for any vital applications. The same cannot be said for virtually every other commodity which ensures that supply/demand issues can be kept to a minimum.

I'm talking about unrefined gold deposits, not refined gold reserves. There is a lot of gold still in the ground and even in the seawater that isn't currently economical to retrieve. That would change if we were on the gold standard.

Azelma wrote:

7. This is pretty weak... why couldn't we just have dollars backed by gold? This allows people to still use dollar bills but at least it would be backed by something other than confidence in the Fed. Additionally, I am pretty sure drug dealers and what not still use dollars even though they still have serial numbers.....

The definition of a gold-backed currency is that the dollar and the gold are freely interchangeable. Of course you could put up bureaucratic roadblocks against this (as is common) but that would contradict your "free market" beliefs. So which is it?

Azelma wrote:

8. Doesn't this go back to your point in number 3? How do we know it wasn't a coincidence because of the rapid expansion of industrialization in the early 20th century (in which there was still a gold standard) and the ability of people to move out of farms and into cities? The U.S. dollar was effectively tied to gold until 1971 so a great deal of the economic gains came during a gold standard period. So basically you are saying that the internet is a result of a floating currency? That seems like a stretch to me...

Wasn't the dot-com revolution driven by investment? If the country was on the gold standard, there wouldn't have been as strong an incentive to invest as to hoard wealth or engage in wasteful mineral exploration.

The gold standard has been used since the beginning of time and ours is the only civilization to make such rapid progress. Why didn't the gold standard cause rapid growth for any of the other civilizations that have used it for the last three thousand years?

Azelma wrote:

Consider reading this link below as to why the US economy hasn't collapsed yet despite its monetary policies:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... a&aid=3482

Basically, the same rules don't apply when you can borrow unlimited amounts of your own currency at home and abroad.. The U.S. dollar is still the reserve currency of choice (largely thanks to a lack of alternatives) so people are still willing to hold greenbacks despite their incredibly poor fundamentals...

That article corroborates my point which is that the problem is with the underlying strength of the country and not the greenback system itself.

Hamilton did the same thing the Fed did, which was using debt as a form of leverage. It worked for him because he didn't overplay his hand.

Azelma wrote:

Voltaire wrote:

At the end fiat money returns to its inner value—zero.

Henry Ford wrote:

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before morning.

And what's the intrinsic value of gold...?

Henry Ford was one of those people who believed the Jews controlled the world through banking and supported Hitler for that reason.

Winston Churchill wrote:

It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read a book of quotations.

You didn't answer all or even most of my questions (most specifically about why what you believe about Smith contradicts what he actually said, or why you don't seem to have any other influences), and most of what you did were just a series of weak or non sequitor answers propped up by Googling.

You say you majored in finance and fete Adam Smith and market economics, but you don't even know what "deflation" means, or understand the concept of opportunity cost as it relates to inflation vs investment. Is that a problem with the "superior education" you didn't get or you personally?

Aestu · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:07 pm

Kayllaira wrote:

On the subject of loans, you can't tell the future and determine if you're going to be able to pay them back or whether or not they'll "pay off" in the end in terms of landing a good job. But if I don't take out loans, I get no education without putting my life on hold for another 4 or 5 years to save up for tuition - which keeps increasing. Personally, I'd like to have a career so I can get married and start a family before I'm 30, so taking out 6-7k in loans is a chance I'm willing to take. Especially since many hospitals have a tuition reimbursement program. If they didn't, I'd still have a better chance of being able to afford $6-7k *after* getting a degree than *before*. Besides, I won't be able to afford a house up front and there's no guarantee that I will ALWAYS have a job. Does that mean I shouldn't take out a mortgage?

Azelma specifically said he took out a credit card loan, which is extremely high interest and imprudent. I'm guessing you went with student loans which are a lot more affordable.

Prudence is key to such calculations. You obviously have a lot fewer options than either Azelma or I, but you also have a much more solid game plan. That obviously doesn't make your bet certain or the deck any less stacked against you. I'm not saying you're making a mistake (or that I haven't made some), I'm just saying that sometimes you can make no mistakes and still lose.

Battletard · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:17 pm

Winston Churchill wrote:

It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read a book of quotations.

Voltaire wrote:

A witty saying proves nothing

Also relevant to this thread, a poorly worded quickly scrawled rant on my facebook after encountering some dickshit posting stupid bullshit consistent with what dickshits generally post:

Quote:

I hate when people use the pretense of being unemployed as a crutch to tell others who are employed to never complain about their jobs. I am very grateful for my job, and I work very hard at it. Probably harder than those same people who are unemployed that make those stupid baseless comments, hence their unemployment status.

I am entitled to express frustration about certain workplace occurrences. Just because YOU don't work 11 and a half hour shifts only to be forced to cut the overtime later doesn't mean I have to enjoy it.

Finding 'a job' is not hard at all. Finding a job that pays well and that you enjoy and isn't a total pain in the ass is very difficult right now. Suck it up, princess..swallow your pride and get a job that you consider 'beneath you.'

I don't begrudge someone bitching about how hard they have it in the unemployment line, so why do they get all bent out of shape when someone who is gainfully employed mentions having a rough day?

So if more people would just take their stupid degree in 'Women's Studies' down to the local McDonalds for an interview and flip burgers till they found something better, they wouldn't have any place getting snippy with people with jobs. Good jobs, bad jobs, blowjobs, inside jobs. Who gives a fuck?

Eturnalshift · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:40 pm

Some ways to pay for your own college without tapping into the pockets of your parents... (except for maybe a place to live?) And these aren't all mutually exclusive since you could use a combination of all of these to help cover the costs.

1. Find a full-time job that has a reimbursement program, prior to enrolling in college. Enroll in courses that follow the reimbursement program guidelines. Take out a low-interest loan or pay for books and tuition. Work to pay down your loan/credit cards while attending school. Wait for the reimbursement check and use it towards the next semester.

2. Join the military, some service program or a job that has tuition (not reimbursement) as a benefit.

3. Complete some credits at a community college and transfer those low-level 100/200 courses to a four-year school - huge saving in cost.

4. Attend an in-state college instead of trying to juggle out-of-state costs, moving across the country and whatever else.

5. Live with your parents and commute to your college to save on Room/Board

6. Work your ass off, save your money, go to school

7. Get a two-year degree, enter the work force, then complete your four-year degree once you have enough money/credit saved up to afford college. (This works well if the two-year college has agreements with state colleges, like NOVA has with VT/GMU/UMW/UVA/etc.)

8. Apply for Grants/Scholarships

Azelma · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:40 pm

Couple things:

Quote:

Azelma specifically said he took out a credit card loan, which is extremely high interest and imprudent. I'm guessing you went with student loans which are a lot more affordable.

No I didn't say that at all. Where do you come up with this shit?

I ran up credit card debt paying for gas/books/covering expenses that my internship wages couldn't cover. I took student loans out (both federally subsidized and private) to pay for my education. Now I understand why you think I "gambled"...man you must think I'm really retarded if you think i tried to fund my entire college education with a credit card lol.

I've stated that I paid my credit card debt off first (since it was highest interest, obviously) and now I'm working on my student loans (attacking the private ones which have higher interest first, then moving to the federal loans).

Aestu wrote:

You say you majored in finance and fete Adam Smith and market economics, but you don't even know what "deflation" means, or understand the concept of opportunity cost as it relates to inflation vs investment. Is that a problem with the "superior education" you didn't get or you personally?

I actually didn't major in finance in college, and never claimed I did. Not sure where you read that either. My degree: Bachelor of Science in Business Administration - Specialization in Marketing.

In any case:

Quote:

Inflation incentivizes investment because it prevents hoarding of capital. "Use it or lose it". Opportunity cost at its finest.

Tell that to this guy.

I really need to stop letting you pull me in since clearly no matter what I say you'll read multiple untruths into it to support your opinion of me being a child with down syndrome who somehow managed to get a good job.

mazeltov · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:24 pm

Eturnalshift wrote:

Some ways to pay for your own college without tapping into the pockets of your parents... (except for maybe a place to live?) And these aren't all mutually exclusive since you could use a combination of all of these to help cover the costs.

1. Find a full-time job that has a reimbursement program, prior to enrolling in college. Enroll in courses that follow the reimbursement program guidelines. Take out a low-interest loan or pay for books and tuition. Work to pay down your loan/credit cards while attending school. Wait for the reimbursement check and use it towards the next semester.

2. Join the military, some service program or a job that has tuition (not reimbursement) as a benefit.

3. Complete some credits at a community college and transfer those low-level 100/200 courses to a four-year school - huge saving in cost.

4. Attend an in-state college instead of trying to juggle out-of-state costs, moving across the country and whatever else.

5. Live with your parents and commute to your college to save on Room/Board

6. Work your ass off, save your money, go to school

7. Get a two-year degree, enter the work force, then complete your four-year degree once you have enough money/credit saved up to afford college. (This works well if the two-year college has agreements with state colleges, like NOVA has with VT/GMU/UMW/UVA/etc.)

8. Apply for Grants/Scholarships

Easiest. Get 220+ on PSAT = national merit finalist = full ride to dozens of schools private and public.

Azelma · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:29 pm

mazeltov wrote:

Easiest. Get 220+ on PSAT = national merit finalist = full ride to dozens of schools private and public.

I only got semi-finalist QQ

Yuratuhl · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:52 pm

Eturnalshift wrote:

Some ways to pay for your own college without tapping into the pockets of your parents... (except for maybe a place to live?) And these aren't all mutually exclusive since you could use a combination of all of these to help cover the costs.

1. Find a full-time job that has a reimbursement program, prior to enrolling in college. Enroll in courses that follow the reimbursement program guidelines. Take out a low-interest loan or pay for books and tuition. Work to pay down your loan/credit cards while attending school. Wait for the reimbursement check and use it towards the next semester.

2. Join the military, some service program or a job that has tuition (not reimbursement) as a benefit.

3. Complete some credits at a community college and transfer those low-level 100/200 courses to a four-year school - huge saving in cost.

4. Attend an in-state college instead of trying to juggle out-of-state costs, moving across the country and whatever else.

5. Live with your parents and commute to your college to save on Room/Board

6. Work your ass off, save your money, go to school

7. Get a two-year degree, enter the work force, then complete your four-year degree once you have enough money/credit saved up to afford college. (This works well if the two-year college has agreements with state colleges, like NOVA has with VT/GMU/UMW/UVA/etc.)

8. Apply for Grants/Scholarships

This is mostly sound advice, but you can't really enter the workforce on a two-year degree these days. No more than you could with a high school degree, anyway.

Usdk · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:54 pm

Yes you can. Skilled labor, so i've heard, is at a demand for people, and certain jobs can make you a lot of money if you're good with your hands. It may not be an office job, but many people aren't suited to that kind of thing anyways.

Battletard · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:52 pm

I'm saving money + waiting for my children to get a little older and more independent and then my plan is to pursue a certification technical trade oriented learning path.

I'd like to do welding since its not as commonly pursued as electrician and plumber in terms of fields of study. Equally in demand and far less competitive market.

There's an electrician here (not sure what level of expertise) doing electrical work for our store and I make more than he does :/

Aestu · **Posted:** Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:38 pm

Azelma wrote:

Couple things:

Quote:

Azelma specifically said he took out a credit card loan, which is extremely high interest and imprudent. I'm guessing you went with student loans which are a lot more affordable.

No I didn't say that at all. Where do you come up with this shit?

I ran up credit card debt paying for gas/books/covering expenses that my internship wages couldn't cover. I took student loans out (both federally subsidized and private) to pay for my education. Now I understand why you think I "gambled"...man you must think I'm really retarded if you think i tried to fund my entire college education with a credit card lol.

I've stated that I paid my credit card debt off first (since it was highest interest, obviously) and now I'm working on my student loans (attacking the private ones which have higher interest first, then moving to the federal loans).

Same difference, attached cost.

Azelma wrote:

Aestu wrote:

You say you majored in finance and fete Adam Smith and market economics, but you don't even know what "deflation" means, or understand the concept of opportunity cost as it relates to inflation vs investment. Is that a problem with the "superior education" you didn't get or you personally?

I actually didn't major in finance in college, and never claimed I did. Not sure where you read that either. My degree: Bachelor of Science in Business Administration - Specialization in Marketing.

Same difference, business/commercial; you ought to know those terms.

Azelma wrote:

In any case:

Quote:

Inflation incentivizes investment because it prevents hoarding of capital. "Use it or lose it". Opportunity cost at its finest.

Hyperinflation is not comparable to nominal inflation.

Azelma wrote:

I really need to stop letting you pull me in since clearly no matter what I say you'll read multiple untruths into it to support your opinion of me being a child with down syndrome who somehow managed to get a good job.

Untruths? No. The better question is, why do you automatically reject the notion that your ideas are flawed no matter how strong the evidence to that effect? Like I said, it's that lack of critical thinking - not the difference of opinion itself - that makes me think you're dumb.

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