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Le sigh....for the record, I'm pro choice. The economics of not having a bunch of single parents who can't afford their children making kids who grow up to be criminals and wards of the state far outweighs my personal ethical dilemma with abortion. It's a fact, since Roe V Wade, crime has gone down. As a result, I believe abortion should remain legal.

However, for me personally, I can say with 200% positivity that if I knocked some girl up, I would want her to keep the child. Even if she didn't want to take care of it once it was born, I would accept responsibility. I am in a financial position where I could care for a child (sure, it would be tough as hell, but I would accept the consequences), and I feel I'd be an excellent father. It comes down to conscience...for me, everyone can argue round and round about "when life begins" the fact that no one can confirm or deny WHEN a fetus can be considered human is the reason why abortion is still legal.

I guess I have just made a logical and conscientious decision about my personal view on abortion. If the fetus were not aborted, in all likelihood it will be born, and will be a human. It won't be a goat, it won't be a duck, it will be a human. As soon as sperm meets egg, it's well on the way to being "alive" I could tell you about how soon you'll see a tiny heartbeat, how soon it will start to look like a baby, but it would all serve to support my personal belief that, at conception, it is a human life - and therefore aborting it is akin to murder in my eyes.

Again, as a cynic with very little faith in society, I think abortion should remain legal - but for me personally, I'd never ever want such a thing on my conscience. Let's also not even get into how abortion affects a woman's psyche. There's a reason most women who get an abortion have only one. There's a reason many suffer depression afterward. If a fetus is nothing but a mass of cells, there shouldn't be any ethical "choice" to be made. Yet, there is.


Also, Mayo, please continue with the hyperboles - it only re-enforces my view that people use abortion as a "Get out of Jail Free" card in many cases.

Okay.

There is an ethical choice, at least for people who can't afford a baby, might die during the birth, got raped, or aren't capable of raising a child in a good, healthy environment.


I was just pointing out how the whole "if you can't handle the baby, you shouldn't be having sex" argument is ridiculous, because I don't think a single goddamn person (including the people who trumpet this bullshit point) does serious financial work to see if they can afford a child.

PS: I've been making them more and more outrageous because you're so dense you weren't able to find out I was being sarcastic until I pulled the plot from one of the Lethal Weapon movies. Congrats.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

So Azelma at what point do we start killing old people when we can't take care of them anymore? They're people, and they're a financial and social burden that some can't handle.

Dvergar /
Quisling

Was merely explaining my personal view on abortion because of the "le sigh" comment. You don't have to read it ya know ;p



Uh, hate to break it to you bro, but I knew you were being sarcastic from the first comment. See below:



Meaning, "I disagree with you because I see that you are being sarcastic to make your point."

If I thought you were being serious here, I would have said "I agree with you." I then went on in the post to point out how ridiculous your hyperbole really is, since you are much more likely to make a child having sex than to be mauled by a bear by walking into a forest.

Come on Mayo, at least read what I write before calling me dense!



In truth, it is ridiculous to say "if you can't afford a baby, don't have sex" - in an ideal world, this would be the case...but it is not. What we need to do, is make sure all the people who cannot afford babies have free or extremely low-cost access to birth control.

I rage more about the stupid teenage children of affluent parents who use abortion like an eraser on a pencil rather than the poor black woman who doesn't know any better and/or can't afford the child, was raped, or whatever the horrible case may be. Again, I think abortion should remain legal for this reason. You cannot convince me though, that someone who has had 5 abortions doesn't need to have a chastity belt welded to them.

So it's ok to kill humans in the womb if they are a financial or social drain on the people who would have to take care of them. I have a grandfather in a home. He is senile, needs constant expensive care, and I have to spend time visiting him. So, I can kill him right? It's the same thing as killing a baby, both are bothersome humans and you support killing the baby so clearly you would support killing the old. And why stop there? There are people who are in accidents or OD on drugs and become a great drain in their families, requiring constant attention and expensive medical intervention. We should be able to kill them too right? I mean, a kid who od's at 21 lived a pretty good life before that, but now he's just too much of a bother, so the parents should be allowed to put him down, yeah?

Dvergar /
Quisling

didn't we already have this abortion discussion.... pretty sure there's a 13 page thread SOMEWHERE.... somewhere...

Speak for yourself, Mayo. I'm sure there are plenty of people who give serious consideration before having children - it's irresponsible to do otherwise. My wife started taking birth control before we started having sex, which was $15/mo. When we decided we wanted to have kids we did some research as to how much raising a child would cost in our area. We determined how much the one-time cost of furniture and other essentials (like car seats and strollers) would cost and we made sure we had that amount in the bank before trying. We also didn't start trying until we knew we could afford the monthly cost, which was determined by calculating the cost of child care in Northern Virginia, the cost of diapers and wipes, the cost of food, clothing and toys, medical expenses, etc. We also made sure we were still saving a large sum of money in case something happened.

Also, When my father gave me 'the talk', he also gave me the talk about protection and consequences. As a lesson of consequence, he gave me an exercise to determine how much it would cost to raise a child. When I started having sex I was making just enough to cover the cost of a child and nothing else. It would've been rough, but it would've been doable with a bit of extra work.

99.99% of people start fucking well before they consider a baby's impact on their financial situation.

Dvergar /
Quisling

or they're like me and think meh, ive got 700 bucks

Funny, I would have had you pegged as pro-choice. Also, you are taking what I said to an extreme.



If you actually read my post, I don't support the killing of babies. I personally would never want to be involved in an abortion in any way. If I learn of a family member having an abortion, I would seriously lose a lot of respect for them. In fact, I dated a girl who told me she got an abortion...that didn't work out.

What I'm saying though, is that REALISTICALLY for all the other reasons (poverty, over-crowded adoption centers, rape, incest, etc. etc.) if society wants to be pro-choice, then I will support people having the option of getting an abortion. If nothing else, people are going to get abortions anyway, and before Roe V Wade, they were doing it in unsanitary back-alley clinics where the risks of death were much much higher. From a cynical standpoint, I have seen the economic and societal impact that Roe V Wade has had, so that's another reason abortion should remain legal.

I also support capital punishment, but I would never want to be the one to turn the chair on.

I am pro-choice





If you believe that a fetus is a living human, and that it is ok to kill said fetus, then you do support the killing of babies. You can dress is up like it's a choice issue, but at the end of the day there's still a pile of little arms and legs whether you call it pro-choice or pro-babykiller. Beyond that you are justifying it with "economics of not having a bunch of single parents who can't afford their children". So if you have an elderly relative you can't afford, you should be able to kill it just the same as killing a child you can't afford.



Depends on the crime but I would totally be cool with giving the injection. However (and here is where the topic changes again) capital punishment should be ended, it doesn't act as a deterrent and it takes far too long to kill a person.

Dvergar /
Quisling

Execution is an effective deterrent only for some crimes - and usually not the ones that are punishable by execution.

Execution is not an effective deterrent for rape or murder because most people who rape and kill either are not rational, or put a low price on life - including their own. No one who is not dissuaded from those crimes by their nature and lesser punishments will be dissuaded by the possibility of a death sentence.

However, I do believe that people who commit crimes out of greed - who put great importance on their own freedom and quality of life - would be dissuaded by a death sentence. I also believe that the punishment should fit the crime.

Were it up to me, I would add a new category of "crimes against society" that would cover severe white collar crime and other forms of scamming and abuse of power - people like Bernie Madoff or Kenneth Lay or Oliver North. I would decriminalize the use of marijuana, but make drug dealing punishable by death.

Rapists, murderers and the incurably criminally insane - even those whose crimes are wholly petty - should be executed by guillotine, because the aim is simply to remove them from society as cleanly and efficiently as possible.

Corporate criminals, scam artists, embezzlers, drug dealers, and mass polluters should be executed by crucifixion, because the horrible nature of crucifixion would be an effective deterrent.

I see lethal injection the same way I see psychiatry - a modern pseudo-religious superstition, a way of trying to sanitize and "scientize" petty biases and vicious human instincts. It's a total copout. Human nature - and the taking of life - is what it is.

I would personally prefer guillotine over injection for my own execution by the Hague or whatever. And if I felt the person deserved to die, I'd have no problem with pulling the lever. Anyone who feels otherwise is a wuss.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

You're just using a straw man argument - usually a conservative tactic. We're not going to come to any sort of resolution with this line of discussion.


I think it IS all about choice. I think the choice should be there (for all those reasons I've listed: economics, social, rape, incest, blah blah), but I also think people should do the right thing and choose to keep the child, or be smarter about birth control if they don't want, can't afford, or aren't ready for a child.

In an ideal world, there would be no need for abortions, because there wouldn't be unwanted pregnancies. I think both sides can agree that we want to reduce unwanted pregnancies as much as possible.

However, unwanted pregnancies happen...and for all sorts of reasons people decide to abort the child. I would rather they have that option, then force them to care for a child that they hate, or get a back alley abortion.

For me personally though, if I were to make a child with someone...I would want to keep that child. I would do everything in my power to keep and raise it, and make it have the best life I could possibly provide. I think part of being human is the desire to procreate and help your offspring have a happy life. Personally, this is just a part of my moral code, and a decision I've made for myself. However, I can't enforce my moral code on the rest of society...but I sure as hell can judge them or view them negatively if they violate it.



I'll use my own straw-man that is a little less ridiculous. Think about smoking. We know smoking kills people, yet it is legal. I think it should remain legal. If people want to kill themselves and spend money on cigs when they could quit (with time and effort), then fine. I don't think the government should tell them they can't do that.

However, I would never personally smoke. I would never want to date someone who smokes. I would be pissed as hell if a loved one smoked. I do view people who smoke slightly negatively (wasting money, killing yourself, etc.) though.


Get it?

It would be a straw man if I added things to your position. You believe fetuses are human, you believe it is ok to kill fetuses in certain circumstances, you therefore believe it is ok to kill humans (that are fetuses) in certain circumstances. I am suggesting that if fetuses are humans it would be no different than killing an elderly relative if they fall under the same issues as killing a human in utero. Either way you're murdering another human being simply for being a nuisance.

Dvergar /
Quisling