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Okay so here's my problem...everyone is getting all mad about this. I think keeping it 17+ is the right thing to do...and really the whole concept of this pill kind of infuriates me...but since it is science, and is useful...that's fine...keep it at 17+.

Here are the common defenses:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11345/1195785-149-0.stm



Always the rape defense with these things - when the fact is that rapes make up a very small % of girls who would be using this pill.

People argue "well they already had unprotected sex, so this just forces them into getting an abortion"

They are ignoring the obvious thing - it's difficult enough to get dumb fucks to wrap that shit up...won't making this get out of jail free card available to everyone have a negative effect on things like...oh let's see... STDs getting spread, teenage pregnancy, etc. etc.?

As it stands, you need parental content, so there are more consequences to having unprotected sex and getting knocked up. If your parents have to find out and go drive you to the pharmacy...if they are good parents they will chew you out, and make sure you NEVER make that mistake again.

If any girl (as young as lets say 12) can just walk into CVS, buy this pill, and then have literally 0 consequences for being a moron and letting a guy bang her without a condom....don't you think she'll be more likely to have unprotected sex again?

And you think these young men...who are pigs (yes I was one once)...will have in the back of their mind "I'm gonna try to convince her to let me raw dog that shit...worse case scenario, we go down to CVS and buy the Plan B pill - it's win/win!"

You KNOW some assholes would think this way.

I mean, am I crazy?

Well said. They need to look at STD prevention as a higher priority. Where are pharmaceutical companies weighing in on this? Probably nowhere because they're making ginormous profits?

So what happens to kids who can't tell their parents (I wonder how many hardcore christians/muslims/whatever would flip their shit if their daughter was having a kid out of wedlock... let alone having sex)? They have a kid that they can't possibly pay for?

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

Those "they" are the same ones refusing to teach anything but abstinence. Complaining about teen pregnancy while intentionally keeping kids uninformed about safe sex is pretty fucking backwards.

Dvergar /
Quisling

No, just stupid.

Contraceptives fail. This is a safe backup that should be available free of charge (like all birth control [holy shit condoms are 2$ a piece at my Walgreens]) to anyone who needs it.

The whole 'people use plan B as an excuse to have consequence free sex' is a load of crock. The main reason people use it?

Contraceptives fail.
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Denying access to a significant part of the population (and honestly, one that needs it the most), is immoral and just fucking stupid.

I'm wary of anyone arguing for less options when it comes to birth control. I don't care what your reasoning is, at the end of the day, you're still denying someone a chance to stop a mistake.

Not to mention unintended babies tend to harm mothers a lot more than missing, indigent fathers. The "punish them for having unprotected sex" thing is petty, stupid, and malicious. That's going to be someone's kid, a kid they don't want that they'll likely mistreat. No one needs that kind of lesson, and if you think they do, you're not a human being.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

The only problem I see with placing no restrictions on Plan B is that the pill is not risk-free from a health perspective, and there is the danger of impulsive teenagers freaking out and endangering their health by taking them, even serially.

Ideally this would be solved through mandatory, confidential health consultation - i.e., having an MD sign off on it. Since we do not have a national healthcare system, really this is a small facet of a larger problem, or a problem that is bigger than the sum of its parts, depending on how you look at it.

The "kids would use this as a means to have unprotected sex" is bullshit because it's begging the question. Is the issue that the sex is unprotected or that they're having sex?

If the issue is that the sex is unprotected, then shouldn't the focus move to STD management - something, again, easily within reach of a national healthcare system via common antibiotics and free testing and documentation?

If the issue is that they're having sex, is the issue that we oppose sex on principle, or that kids shouldn't be having sex? If we think kids shouldn't have sex, then when should they? Do we really think that hordes of freshmen cutting lose and getting abortions or knocked up when they ding 18 is somehow better?

In that case the issue is really shitty parenting, and Plan B won't change that one way or the other. Plan B, present or absent, won't prevent kids from growing up or making some permutation of good, and bad decisions, and doing things that are both foolish and natural for the age.

Stupid people will continue to be stupid and not use Plan B even if it's available, and smart people will continue to manage risk whether or not Plan B is available.

Realistically, the only people who will use Plan B are the people stupid enough to make bad decisions but smart enough to try to correct them...in other words, exactly those who the program is meant to help.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Contraceptives do fail, and it's a good reason to keep the pill available, but Azelma makes a good point. You know exactly the type of people about whom he's speaking. As a girl, you are probably familiar with the "aw, c'mon, baby, nothing bad will happen" bullshit...some girls actually fall for that. While Azelma has a point, I don't think you can really complain about people not taking responsibility while at the same time arguing to deny them a last-ditch chance to do exactly that.

I still think parents should be a part of the conversation for exactly the reasons Azelma points out, and also because we can't blame parents for the way their kids turn out (which we do) when we continually strip away their ability to monitor and manage their children's behavior. There is always going to be the danger of children being abused by the same people they'd have to rely on for support...I don't think that's anything new that this pill throws into the mix. There are already protections in place for those situations, and while I grant that they're not the greatest protections (since they rely on someone, most likely the victim, to come forward to authorities for help), they are the alternative our system has developed to protect both the children in question as well as the (potentially innocent) adults in question.

Mayo's..."objection," such as it is, isn't so much an objection as it is another admission of his own thinly-veiled bigotry toward people who don't share his beliefs. While I'm sure there are people who out there who actually hold to their belief about the sanctity of life, and would make their child(ren) endure the consequences of their actions, it's just as likely that the pill in question is a Godsend (HA HA!!) for the sort of people that wouldn't want to stroll their daughter by their friends picketing the local abortion clinic.

I've really enjoyed this whole tossing out what the actual experts on the subject decided for the sake of a political decision. I enjoyed an article I read the other day that said it was the republican's fault this happened, because the Obama administration couldn't afford the possibility of campaign ads...wish I could find that bastard again, it was a hoot. Thanks to the Obama administration for a few minutes of giggles in an otherwise dreary week.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Good point, its not like some parents will throw acid on their children or anything. Not to mention that fanatics ruining their children's lives by forcing them to have children they never wanted is a great idea.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

For the record, I agree that contraceptives should be free of charge. I think it's sad that we live in a society where they have to lock up condoms because they are so expensive that people steal them (there's a CVS and a Walgreens near me that does this). I am 100% with you on that fact, Zaryi.

I am not saying that the Plan B Pill shouldn't be available - I'm saying that I think it's perfectly reasonable to require those under 17 to have parental permission for such a thing...or as Aestu points out, a doctor's note at the very least.

My point is, SOMEONE should be put in the position where they can talk to these kids getting knocked up about safe sex and about why they should be using contraceptives (if they aren't).

Of course we don't know statistics...but I wonder how many of these Plan B purchases happen because contraceptives fail, and how many happen because of people making bad decisions?

My sister has loads of sexually active friends (and yes, most of them are super hot)...and you know what I was horrified to learn of? An OVERWHELMING number of them still use the "pull out method" They were fine with this!

I'm not even shitting you...and these are 21+ year olds being reckless and stupid. They have one night stands with strangers and don't use protection.

Requiring kids (because if you're under 17, I think you're a kid) to at least be in a situation where an adult can talk to them about the risks, and chide them for being stupid is the right thing to do.



Kids are going to fuck regardless..which is why abstinence education is retarded and doesn't work....I agree. But we need to have a balance between understanding that kids are going to fuck, and letting them just go around and not have any consequences.

How would this be funded? Why condoms and not antibiotics?



Why would it be considered "reasonable"?
What if the parents are themselves deadbeats?



Who? Who appoints this individual? How do you compel the kid to listen?



What sort of bad decisions?

If they are purchasing Plan B, and the "bad decision" was an incident resulting in exposure to male gametes, doesn't that mean they made the right decision in the end?

If the net result is that the right decision is to be made, and the policy is to deny that route, then isn't that what Tuhl described - purely malicious policymaking...what other reason can there be for denying the option?



In what respect is this not fine, and how does that connect to the issue? Do you think it's "not fine" because of pregnancy (addressed by Plan B), because of STDs (in which case, why should Plan B be free but not antibiotics), or something else (specify)?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

1) I don't think 12 year olds have the money to be buying Plan B on the regular
2) I'm pretty sure it's a lot of hormones that fucks most people up when they take it, and wouldn't want to take it regularly

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

My point is that I firmly believe that the measure of government policy is the degree to which it promotes human dignity. Freedom is an important part of this. By that I mean that government should give people the FREEDOM to make the best decisions.

Thus I believe that government programs should be simple and fundamental. It makes no sense to say, we'll fund this one medical or reproductive thing then split a hair and say we won't fund something else. Who makes those decisions? How? Upon what basis? Those kinds of judgements are in opposition to freedom, not only because they involve people making choices they have no business making, but also because it makes life that much more complicated for everyone else.

So free condoms, Plan B, antibiotics, general healthcare. What principle do we use to decide which should be free and which should not? My answer is: none. Make it simple, promote freedom by ensuring that the fundamentals of life are taken care of, so people can concern themselves with other things.

"Talking to teens". Who decides who has the right to indoctrinate children? Who decides who has the right to be in such a position of authority? Who decides what the "party line" is? Again: my answer is no one. If parents step up the plate, fine and well. If not, the government should provide kids with the tools they need to get through life - education and discipline. If the government offers indoctrination, without mutual responsibility, then kids will become cynical towards authority.

When I said "a doctor sign off", I meant that the judgement should be strictly medical. Is this kid going to get some sort of sickness from the things? It's those kinds of strictly technical things the government has always done really well, from NASA to the USPS to the US Army to WPA. It's things that are based on arbitrary hair-splitting and half-baked social efforts like Social Security and Social Services that always create a mess, when there's arbitrary responsibility with no accountability.

A doctor in such a position, like a public defender, should be accountable to the local and federal medical board, just as a lawyer is accountable to the bar. Providing such services should be an obligation of holding a medical license. After all, they get paid the big bucks.

To prevent abuse, there should be an IA group that has incentive to rat out abuse by way of offering promotions to those who string up abusers and the incompetent. Competition in action.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Wouldn't you agree it would be better to prevent disease rather than only focus on curing it? Go after the cause rather than the effect? In terms of cost, is it more effective to focus on preventing disease, or funding research to cure all the various strains of STDs that are out there? Also...antibiotics aren't very helpful for STDs like HIV/AIDS. As for how it would be funded, the same way your antibiotics would be.



You're right, requiring 17+ wouldn't make bad parents any less bad.

If it forces a conversation with an adult, though, isn't that a good thing?



It would be a doctor or a parent, no one needs to be appointed. Of course you can't compel the kid to listen - but at least they have to hear it....lord knows their peers probably won't be voices of reason.



Unprotected sex is a bad decision. Choosing to get Plan B doesn't negate the bad decision of putting yourself at risk for STDs and pregnancy. Again, are we going after the cause, or the effect? We should be addressing the cause.



You think using the pull out method as your primary contraceptive and having unprotected sex with strangers is fine? If you ever have a daughter, will you be happy if she's doing that?

How it relates is that if 22 year olds are making dumb decisions, we can logically assume that there are probably 15 year olds (people with less experience and knowledge about sex) making these exact same dumb decisions.

The 22 year olds are adults, they are set in their stupid ways, and no one can help them but themselves.

But the 15 year old? Well, they may still be under the care of adults...so there's still hope for them learning something and not making the same mistakes again.