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 Post subject: @act of valor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:29 pm  
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awesome action with incredible attention to detail. super bad acting. TERRIBLE acting. ISHTAR acting. anyone else see it? also i dont like how reviewers are calling it a Navy SEAL recruitment video. it's not meant to recruit, it's meant to honor. anyone who tries to be a SEAL from watching a movie or video wouldn't make it anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: @act of valor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:38 pm  
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"...yes, even spiritual, power of the military-industrial complex..."

Nothing the SEALs do is honorable. They are good at their jobs. Nothing more, nothing less. They deserve no more honor than anyone else who does something well.

The US has not been involved in any morally correct armed conflict since before the organization existed.


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 Post subject: Re: @act of valor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:57 pm  
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Most people here have probably heard of those words but never seen, much less understood, the actual delivery.

What was the last time someone made a movie about the British SAS or the German SS or the Iraqi Republican Guard? Why do people care enough to make a movie about these people?

How much does it cost to train, equip, and maintain a SEAL? Not just salary...not just equipment...but the entire network of support and supply that exists to uphold their very way of life, a way of life as strange and removed from the real concerns of our time as feudal knights.

And just as with feudal knights, bearing arms doesn't mean they live in more fear than people struggling to get by day to day, or that their adventures in the service of the powers-that-be are just...

Opportunity cost. SEALs are people of ability. What could they do for our country if they weren't tied up fighting meaningless wars? That's raw human material that could do much good.

Like it or not, the SEALs exist only because the problem exists. They are part of the problem, and they have no place in the solution.


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 Post subject: Re: @act of valor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:23 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
"...yes, even spiritual, power of the military-industrial complex..."

Nothing the SEALs do is honorable. They are good at their jobs. Nothing more, nothing less. They deserve no more honor than anyone else who does something well.

The US has not been involved in any morally correct armed conflict since before the organization existed.


There were SeALs during WWII...you might want to correct yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: @act of valor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:43 pm  
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I looked it up. That's not true. The SEALs didn't come into existence until the 1960s, although they tried to lay claim to prior glories that didn't belong to them.

Just goes to show that the cult of militarism will rewrite history to suit its own ends...because in the final analysis, that's all they really care about.

Down the memory hole!

EDIT: Reading the Wikipedia article, it's cute how they claim they owe their existence to the same President they murdered.


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 Post subject: Re: @act of valor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:30 pm  
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Still...gotta admit...the Navy Seals could fuck you up.


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 Post subject: Re: @act of valor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:53 am  
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Dotzilla wrote:
also i dont like how reviewers are calling it a Navy SEAL recruitment video. it's not meant to recruit, it's meant to honor.

To be fair, so are all of those army commercials, which from the previews, this looks like a hour and change version of which I have to pay for.

EDIT: The commercials said that they used actual Navy SEALS for the actors. Are you actually surprised that the acting isn't great?


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 Post subject: Re: @act of valor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:58 am  
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I'd like to be apart of the drama/entertainment department of the Navy Seals please. Where do I sign?


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 Post subject: Re: @act of valor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:21 am  
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Aestu wrote:
I looked it up. That's not true. The SEALs didn't come into existence until the 1960s, although they tried to lay claim to prior glories that didn't belong to them.


They didn't call them SeALs before the 1960s, when they folded a few of the more specialized amphibious units, like underwater demolitions and OSS, together. The history is still there. What you're saying would be like arguing that the French can't claim the Gauls as part of their history.

That said, this movie is nothing other than an expensive recruiting tool for the military.

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 Post subject: Re: @act of valor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:05 am  
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Jubbergun wrote:
They didn't call them SeALs before the 1960s, when they folded a few of the more specialized amphibious units, like underwater demolitions and OSS, together. The history is still there.


History, yes, but not the "them". The point stands that the reason they do this is pure aggrandizement by way of associating themselves with more glorious causes than waging an illegal war in Cambodia and burning down the huts of third-worlders who were no threat to us.

Jubbergun wrote:
What you're saying would be like arguing that the French can't claim the Gauls as part of their history.


They generally don't. Which is also why they use the fasces as part of their seal of state even though Caesar enslaved and killed (mostly through starvation and drowning) about two million Gauls.

Jubbergun wrote:
That said, this movie is nothing other than an expensive recruiting tool for the military.
[/quote]

Interestingly, the head of the special forces has gone on a very aggressive promo effort trying to get the special forces ramped up as the rest of the military gets scaled down.


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 Post subject: Re: @act of valor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:38 am  
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Why would they need to recruit more people? Unemployment is still pretty high so a lot of people are turning to the military as a career option. As such, most branches are consistently meeting, or exceeding, recruitment number and retention is pretty high. I don't see why this is seen as a 'recruitment tool' but Call of Duty, Battlefield, Medal of Honor and every war movie, show and Tom Clancy book/game in the last decade or two isn't. It's a movie that's going to make money and that's about that. Will it pull in some people? Maybe... but so will the things that actually benefit the recruit... like college benefits, job security, the chance to see the world, money and bonuses, the chance to see the world, post-service opportunities, retirement and benefit plans, skill learning, etc.

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Interestingly, the head of the special forces has gone on a very aggressive promo effort trying to get the special forces ramped up as the rest of the military gets scaled down.

I'm not sure if you're just stating a fact or if you're saying, "The military needs to recruit more people to fill special operations positions." If you were saying the latter, the military already has a pool of over a million people they can tap to go to whatever elite/special training schools if needed. All it takes is an order from the top.
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 Post subject: Re: @act of valor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:58 am  
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Not really, the specialized units have a high wash-out rate. I think the BUDs training for SeALs has something like a 90% drop-out/fail rate. Most specialized/secret/elite force training has a high drop-out/fail rate. Not just anyone can do it, and that's why this film, like Top Gun back in the 80s, got the friendly treatment from the DoD. I'm surprised there aren't recruiters set up outside the movie theatres showing it (I remember there being a booth in the actual theatre with recruiters waiting to talk to people after Top Gun in the 80s). There are probably a lot of guys that would love to do this stuff, but would wash out of the training programs. It's not just as easy as saying, "Bob, go be a SeAL," and two months later Bob's a SeAL.

SeALs aren't walking death machines. That's just a lot of hype. Sure, they're dangerous men when you set them loose to do something, but they're not lone ninja assassins. Teamwork is a huge part of the SeALs. Common sense and intelligence are in high demand for elite units like these, and we all know how rare those attributes are in regular society. They're no less (or more) rare in the military, and it's a smaller pool of people to choose from than the general public. That's why there's a push to recruit for these units in particular.

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 Post subject: Re: @act of valor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:59 am  
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Why would they need to recruit more people? Unemployment is still pretty high so a lot of people are turning to the military as a career option. As such, most branches are consistently meeting, or exceeding, recruitment number and retention is pretty high. I don't see why this is seen as a 'recruitment tool' but Call of Duty, Battlefield, Medal of Honor and every war movie, show and Tom Clancy book/game in the last decade or two isn't. It's a movie that's going to make money and that's about that. Will it pull in some people? Maybe... but so will the things that actually benefit the recruit... like college benefits, job security, the chance to see the world, money and bonuses, the chance to see the world, post-service opportunities, retirement and benefit plans, skill learning, etc.

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Interestingly, the head of the special forces has gone on a very aggressive promo effort trying to get the special forces ramped up as the rest of the military gets scaled down.

I'm not sure if you're just stating a fact or if you're saying, "The military needs to recruit more people to fill special operations positions." If you were saying the latter, the military already has a pool of over a million people they can tap to go to whatever elite/special training schools if needed. All it takes is an order from the top.

It's not a question of recruitment. It's a question of power and relevance.

It is in the nature of all human institutions to strive to increase their power and prestige. No human institution has ever simply folded when it became obsolete, and none ever will.


When a progressive institution achieves its objectives, and in doing so, makes itself obsolete, the hardcore that are the vital impetus of every successful movement will not filter back into mainstream society - they will inevitably be driven towards radicalism, in a desperate need to maintain their power and relevance.

This is why, for example, the black rights movement has gone from being a progressive force supported by progressive-minded middle-class people of all races, to pork-barrel extortion, apologist for the foibles of black America, and ultimately serving to keep black people down by using the most degenerate aspects of black culture to pander to the lowest common denominator. Same for the women's rights movement. Same for the American socialist movement during the New Deal. Same for the Southern nationalist movement.

And it's the same for the US military.

The US military did its thing in World War II. The product sold itself, so to speak - the cause was a just one. After the war ended, the military suddenly had to justify its continued existence, its access to vast funds and a network of support.

The movie isn't a recruiting video because it's not warm bodies the military wants or needs. What the military needs, is a renewal of its spiritual power as people are gradually coming to realize the military is one giant Ponzi scheme. It's a scam.

The military can continue to waste a third of our nation's resources per year - far more, if one counts the opportunity cost of all the talent, resources and industry not spent on improving our national competitiveness - ONLY so long as it maintains its untouchable status. ONLY so long as it can maintain the spiritual power that makes it sacrosanct.

And if you don't know what "sacrosanct" literally means, I suggest you look it up, since the analogy is extremely relevant here.

When people stop seeing the military as something that is untouchable because people invoke "The Old Lie" - and if you don't know what that is, look that up too...the military will go back to being a marginally funded halfway house for "scoundrels whose last refuge is patriotism", just like it is in most civilized countries, and just like it was in ours before the World Wars.

There's a damn good reason that militaristic expression is a felony in Germany. Because those people have learned the hard way - the very hard way - where that thinking inevitably leads.


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 Post subject: Re: @act of valor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:01 am  
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So Aestu, are you saying that America is on its way to becoming a military dictatorship?


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 Post subject: Re: @act of valor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:03 am  
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Jubbergun wrote:
Not really, the specialized units have a high wash-out rate. I think the BUDs training for SeALs has something like a 90% drop-out/fail rate. Most specialized/secret/elite force training has a high drop-out/fail rate. Not just anyone can do it, and that's why this film, like Top Gun back in the 80s, got the friendly treatment from the DoD. I'm surprised there aren't recruiters set up outside the movie theatres showing it (I remember there being a booth in the actual theatre with recruiters waiting to talk to people after Top Gun in the 80s). There are probably a lot of guys that would love to do this stuff, but would wash out of the training programs. It's not just as easy as saying, "Bob, go be a SeAL," and two months later Bob's a SeAL.


That is very true, and in practice it means enormous expense - and also that the country is wasting its best human material on an expensive enterprise that does nothing for anyone.

The Chinese have a saying. "The worst iron for nails, the worst men for soldiers." The expression isn't meant to be a reflection on the sort of men who become soldiers - it's meant to say, in a well-governed civilization, you don't waste your best minds and bodies on blowing shit up.

Jubbergun wrote:
SeALs aren't walking death machines. That's just a lot of hype. Sure, they're dangerous men when you set them loose to do something, but they're not lone ninja assassins. Teamwork is a huge part of the SeALs. Common sense and intelligence are in high demand for elite units like these, and we all know how rare those attributes are in regular society. They're no less (or more) rare in the military, and it's a smaller pool of people to choose from than the general public. That's why there's a push to recruit for these units in particular.


It's not that simple. Working as a team on the battlefield and being able to get by in civil society are two very different things.

The military is a highly structured environment and civilian life is not. Life is much harder when you have to make your own choices and you aren't afforded the enormous luxury of an infallible moral and existential compass that always points north.


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