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Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

...searching for a comeback....


edit: got it.

They aren't saying the government should pay for birth control, they are saying that the government should force health insurance companies to cover it. Though, I guess that would mean the government would have to cover it, if you were on government healthcare.

Same with abortions.

-----------------------------------------

Anyway, I don't get the controversy - kids are expensive. People are stupid. And people are generally bad parents.

We SHOULD be making it easier to prevent kids from entering this world. That way those who really WANT kids and can raise/afford them, can have the kids. If we don't let people from lower socio-economic backgrounds get low-cost birth control or get abortions...then we're forcing them to birth children who will likely become wards of the state anyway.


From a cost/benefit perspective, smarter to just prevent it from the beginning, rather than drain all the resources bringing these kids into the world and raising them.

I'd rather spend a few thousand making sure women can get all the birth control they want, then have to support unwanted children who will just become wards of the state, unmotivated, and possibly addicts or criminals.

We also have an overpopulation problem in the world - this is one way to control it. It's this or mass sterilization.

People can choose not to have sex.

Democrats can choose not to raise taxes

Republicans can choose not to fund the American war machine to the extent they do

McDonalds can choose to implement morally sound farming practices

Blizzard can choose to implement content with quality in mind and in accordance with their base's expectations

Heroin addicts can choose not to shoot up



It just doesn't happen this way.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

I'd think that fiscal conservatives would be for birth control, because paying for an abortion is a hell of a lot cheaper than paying for a destitute child's welfare and food stamps for the rest of his or her life.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

Believe me, I wish people were responsible and realized the potential consequences of having sex.

They don't.

So we must prevent these consequences.



This. See my post.

I don't disagree with that, but I doubt that even most people who agree with safe and legal abortion think it should be used as anything other than a last resort. I'm actually terribly disappointed with the hang-up social conservatives have with providing children with appropriate sex-education. Condoms and other methods would reduce the need for abortions.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Wait Jubber, are you saying abstinence only education doesn't work?

BLASPHEMY.

Yup. Wouldn't it be a good idea for the government to either give out birth control directly or through mandates on healthcare providers, especially to the poorest Americans who need it the most? People are going to fuck. Might as well make sure that they can do it as safely as possible or, if they get TEEN PREGNANT, they can have an abortion as opposed to bringing a child into the world they aren't ready for and will be nothing but a drain on society.

There's also that whole "healthcare providers and hospitals are allowed to deny birth control if they don't believe in it" debacle, which I'm not looking to get into, mainly because this thread isn't going to be here tomorrow when Aestu shits it up and I burn it to the ground.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

Agree with everything you're saying Mayo.

We aren't going to stop stupid and/or poor people from fucking. Might as well make it as cheap as possible to make sure they aren't reproducing.

Abstinence is a moral choice that should be encouraged by families and churches. Birth control is just taking responsibility for not choosing to be abstinent. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would say that I'm not a true conservative for saying so, but if I let stupid people spewing bullshit change my mind, I'd spend more time agreeing with Aestu.

Since I've read a little about Ms. Fluke last week, I feel like we're all a bunch of chumps who have fallen for a set-up. Her line about "$3000 for birth control during law school" spiel was bogus. She wasn't scheduled to testify at the "no women allowed" hearing, which wasn't the "no women allowed" event it was portrayed to be as Dr. Laura Champion, medical director and physician at Calvin College, testified after the "WHERE ARE ALL THE WOMEN!?!?!?!" dog-and-pony show. The tale about the "friend" that required contraception to treat other medical conditions leaves a lot to be desired, because most women in the United States receive health insurance coverage through private plans, and a Kaiser Family Foundation 2010 survey of employers reports that 85 percent of large firms cover prescription contraceptives in their largest health plans...and Georgetown University's plan specifically covers contraception for uses other than preventing pregnancy.

Yet we all got sucked into this, and it's now no longer about the things it should be about, namely women's health and religious freedom, two very valid concerns which need to find a way to fit together.



I agree with teaching people about contraception and having it available. I don't agree with there being a mandate for its use or a give-away or anything of that nature. The price you pay for contraception doesn't break the bank.

Because of the Fluke Circus, I've been seeing some interesting things regarding the effect birth control, or at least the pill, has had on society as a whole since it was first approved by the FDA in the 60s. While it has been a boon for women who are at least upper-middle-class, it hasn't produced a similar rosy outcome for low-income women. I even followed a few links to some academic journals, one of which had this heady summary:

This paper relates the erosion of the custom of shotgun marriage to the legalization of abortion and the increased availability of contraception to unmarried women in the United States. The decline in shotgun marriage accounts for a significant fraction of the increase in out-of-wedlock first births. Several models illustrate the analogy between women who do not adopt either birth control or abortion and the hand-loom weavers, both victims of changing technology. Mechanisms causing female immiseration are modeled and historically described. This technology-shock hypothesis is an alternative to welfare and job-shortage theories of the feminization of poverty.

I didn't read it. I just don't have that kind of time.

The long-and-short of most of what I read was that once the birth of the child the physical choice of the mother, the marriage and child support became a social choice of the father. Affluent, educated women are/were more likely to be in a long-term relationship before considering having children, while that is/was not necessarily the case the women on the other end of the social spectrum. While women may have "trapped" a marital partner by relying on his post-coital obligations, the situation is now reversed, and women are, or feel they are, obligated to engage in sexual activity in order to procure/maintain a relationship. However, we're definitely still in a transitional phase as a society, and the holdover from the shotgun wedding days can still be seen in our culture when viewed through the prism of women who "forget their pill" under the impression that their partner will be less likely to leave if there is a child involved. In short, Mayo, I think it might be wasted funds because while you may provide the contraception for people, there is no guarantee they'll use it. Further, I think it would be a waste to mandate spending on such a largesse when the materials in question are already cheap and plentiful.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

The fact that you're all making arguments about sex proves that you miss the point entirely.

Dvergar /
Quisling

It's bullshit.
You are all missing the point and not for the reasons Dvergar thinks.

The feminist interviewed by Congress said that the birth control prescriptions aren't for contraception - they're for treatment of cervical warts and other medical conditions, and are forbidden by some religious schools to be prescribed for this purpose. She claimed that the cost of birth control meds can run as high as $1,000 a month.

There are several flaws in her claims:
1. Of all the different institutions and reasons for which people with a medical condition do not have access to medication, religious institutions refusing to prescribe contraceptives is an incredibly narrow issue. People get denied meds because of poverty, discrimination, lack of access, improper diagnosis, overpricing, lack of care, child abuse, etc. There are tens of millions of people in this country who suffer from conditions that are fully ameliorable with meds they don't get.

Female college students, with cervical warts, who happen to attend religious institutions, are a pinprick by comparison.

2. There are many different chronic conditions common amongst people of all age groups including young adults that require periodic medication. AIDS, diabetes, asthma, chronic pain, are just a few that come to mind. I don't need to see statistics to know that the number of women with cervical conditions etc is dwarfed by the number of individuals of both genders with any of the chronic conditions I named.

Her claim that the number of students on the pill for legitimate medical reasons is in the millions is bullshit. Curiously, the conditions she describes didn't exist until a medication was described to treat them. When you point this out, feminists invoke the "swept under the rug" excuse: circular reasoning at its finest.

3. The hard counter to her entire argument - that women are being provided access to meds because of religious groups - is that the reason for this is that the meds are being prescribed in a manner referred to by MDs as "off-label", meaning for purposes other than those for which the drug was conceived.

"Off-label" prescriptions are extremely common, partly because bad doctors like to prescribe anything they can so they can have sex with pharmaceutical company reps, and partly because good doctors understand human physiology well and understand how meds interact with more than one system. Abuses aside, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the practice.

But since the birth control meds are being prescibed off-label for the conditions she claims they are being used to treat, there is really a very simple answer: repackage the active ingredients under a new label and market them specifically, exclusively, to treat the gynecological conditions in question. Problem solved!

So, that's why her claims are bullshit. But WHY is she bullshitting?
That brings us to Part 2:

The education bubble is on the verge of bursting. The feminist racket draws much of its financial and cultural support from the education structure, and they need some ways to remain relevant and demand more funding at a time that all governments and institutions have ever less capacity or inclination to give it to them. Which brings us to:

Birth control medication doesn't cost anywhere near $1k a month. Not to produce, and certainly not to obtain from the pharmacist no matter your plan.

The claim thereof hints at the real motivation for her claims: the feminists want to engage in graft.

They want to bill the government $1,000 a month to grossly overprescribe birth control meds to every woman and her bitch, claiming there's a massive epidemic of cervical warts or something. They did this same bullshit with breast cancer. They did this same bullshit with HPV. They bill huge tabs for the "cost of delivery" and "support services" for a medication that costs maybe $3 a day at extreme most and use the difference for their political purposes.

It's a scam, plain and simple.

The real irony here is that these so-called feminists are actually putting these women's health in grave danger. Birth control meds often have serious long-term side effects, and their use is on the decline in favor of other forms of passive contraception such as the IUD and the shot for just this reason. By overprescribing these meds, they are ensuring that many women WILL develop serious medical conditions they would not otherwise have, including early menopause, immune dysfunction, life-threatening blood clots, and...ironically enough...cervical warts.

Some might be inclined to blame government. That's actually not fair since the practice is far more common in private medical care than in Medicaid or other national health plans. The American reliance on private healthcare and the cronyism and money-driven pseudoscience is, in fact, what has driven a proliferation of dubious medications for conditions ranging from the marginal to the imaginary, with little to no progress made in curing chronic conditions ranging from AIDS to TB to macular degeneration to influenza.

It is worth noting that most successful eradication efforts were government driven, including the extermination of malaria, typhus, polio, and smallpox. Diseases that killed thousands of American citizens every year at the beginning of the century became extinct in the wild within a few decades. The last of these successful eradications took place in the 60s just before the government more or less closed up shop in favor of the pharmaceutical firms.

So, anyway, Jubber, the interviewee, Dvergar, are all wrong. The truth is this issue has nothing to do with either sex nor with women's health.

It is a racket. A scam. An attempt at graft on a massive scale. And...it is really that simple.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Minor postscript: what this person is proposing is also incredibly classist since the beneficiaries will be exclusively those who are sufficiently well off to go to universities with health care plans and are therefore infinitely better off than the tens of millions of Americans struggling to get by day to day.

It's also racist because this is really just another incarnation of "Missing White Woman Syndrome".
If these women were poor and black no one would give a shit.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Is the person in that stupid motivator someone special or something? You're talking to someone who doesn't have cable.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
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