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So I'm currently writing a story on the suppression of minority voters (focusing on Hispanics in typically GOP-dominated states) by way of photo identification laws and voter roll purges, e.g. the one recently initiated by Florida Governor Rick Scott, and while I've done extensive research on the topic at hand, I'd like some outside input. Not necessarily for clarification, of course, but for insight --- something to clarify and perhaps sharpen my knowledge of the subject in a way that statistics, interviews and a database filled with decades' worth of expert knowledge might not be able to. I direct this, obviously, to Aestu, though any insight or opinion (so long as it's fact-based, as I can't mold my spin if it's centered on pure conjecture) is appreciated.

I don't think I have that much to offer.

The best observation that comes to me atm is that the requirements to get an ID are circuitous in nature. In order to get a DMV ID, you must have two forms of proof of residency, amongst them a phone/utility bill to a fixed address, social security card, birth certificate, or green card.

But in order to get almost any of those things, you must have state ID.

Migrant workers are generally paid in cash. This serves the interest of the employer by allowing them to evade taxes and minimum wage laws, and allows them total control over the migrant workers by removing federal authority from the loop. But since they are paid in cash, it also means they can be gainfully employed without having the ID required to open a bank account, which would otherwise be necessary to cash checks.

The term "migrant worker" here applies not only to hispanics but also blacks, who are often surprisingly itinerant. It is important to understand the difficulties of many black families as well as the social marginalization poor blacks endure: if you cannot call your parents, aren't sure when or where you were born or even what your birth name was recorded as, how does one go about acquiring ID?

Another question is that of the sheer time and money involved. What is the wait time at the DMV? How much does a filing cost, or to request information from a hospital or local government? How long does that take, and what is the opportunity cost in terms of lost wages? What is the time frame?

I think the best way to go about documenting all this for the purposes of an essay is to simply cite materials from various DMVs and banks, the requirements for acquiring registrations etc. I would also seek statistics on out-of-wedlock births and orphanhood amongst blacks.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I don't see what the problem with having someone prove that they are a citizen to vote or that they are who they claim to be. I find it comical when people complain about it. If you are a citizen you can acquire a state ID quite easily.

My friend's house burned down when he was a kid and his parents lost all of their documentation. He was still very easily able to obtain a drivers license when he turned 16. And he is Hispanic.

The people that are most likely to be impacted are those who aren't supposed to be voting in the first place....

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

Callysta of Reverence

I'd like to do a full-on report on how the laws affect all minority subgroups, particularly blacks, but this piece is for an upcoming publication (my first deadline is this Friday, to put it into perspective) that's going to be centered around the importance, impact and political (mis)use of the Hispanic vote in state and federal elections. To be specific, it's also primarily going to focus on on that vote's relevance in Florida, the Miami area in particular.

And proof of residence is not the issue, nor is the fact that the correct papers are hard to get. Because so long as you are an American citizen who is in fact eligible to vote, you should have some sort of documentation available --- perhaps filed away as a series of copies in some local office --- that proves your residence and citizenship. The problem is that for the urban poor (and not to mention the elderly --- those of Hispanic origin in particular) it's much, much harder for obtain those documents (and the eventual identification card) due to the fact that a) the card costs $25, which is not within the typical budget of the average impoverished Hispanic living in Miami-Dade County and b) DMV offices are so often located in areas far removed from the inner city and its outlying ghettos that transportation, i.e. the act itself and its potential costs, is hard to find, if not wholly impossible for some.

As I've said, I've researched the subject extensively in the short time that I've had the story assigned to me. It turns out that, according to an NYU-backed study, approximately 11% of eligible voters nationwide (mostly minorities, considering socioeconomic factors) are not in possession of a valid form of identification, and given that percentage's likely demographics, it's safe to say that a solid chunk (if not the majority) are unable to get a form of identification at all.

Regardless, at this moment I've got a day of near-constant phone interviews (with the ACLU, the NAACP, the Governor's office, Florida Senators Nelson and Rubio, several local congresspeople, the Department of Justice and a particularly shady DC-based lawyer whose past work includes the counseling of a Bush-era investigation of alleged voter fraud that turned out to be completely and totally bogus) ahead of me tomorrow, so I'll likely get at least some valid input from the sources listed. Here's to hoping that they at least give me some non-researchable (or at the very least mostly unreported) facts to work into the story. Otherwise, like you said, I'll have to rely mostly upon statistics and prior assessments.

(@Callysta: It's not as simple as that. Your friend was likely socioeconomically well off, no? It's not as if he was in a horrible, ghettoized situation in which he had no control over his sub-$10,000 yearly income and transportation concerns. If he was, he sure as hell wouldn't have been as nonchalant about it as you describe.)

Actually he lived in Compton in the projects. Not what I consider well-off, but who knows?

How many of the people you are talking to smoke or have cellphones or eat fast food? An ID in a necessity. You need to be able to prove that you are who you say you are. Should we let someone pass through customs without a passport? If so, what is the point of identifying who we are at all?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

Callysta of Reverence

But aside from voting, these people don't have any other legitimate need for identification. In the projects, it's not as if you're a frequent flyer. In the projects, your influence really only expands as far as you're physically able. You're trapped, and there's no real reason for you to need something as seemingly needless (to them, at least) as an identification card. So it's not factored much into income, really, disposable or not.

Anyway, I've got a busy day ahead of me and need to catch up on sleep. I'll likely be on tomorrow night to follow up to any additional posts, so keep any insights/opinions coming! Much appreciated, regardless of (minor) disagreements.

these people dont drink or smoke?

How would you, you personally, go about acquiring state ID if you have some permutation of the following:

-limited funds/time
-are uncertain of your name/date/place of birth
-do not have a birth certificate or SS card

Tell me. How would you deal with that problem? How would you go about proving you are a citizen?



Ah, the white woman volunteering she has "a friend with an outrageous anecdote devoid of any specifics or proof that just so happens to perfectly fit the argument she is making."

Except that it actually doesn't. By virtue of the fact these supposed people had a suburban house and neighbors and that their house actually burned down, you're talking about people who have means, capital, and at least some social enfranchisement.

The nature of your response here demonstrates you to be a creature of ignorance and entitlement in being completely unable to fathom what Dagery is describing.

There are people not as fortunate as you, who have literally nothing in this world. They have no property, no family, and they can't smile and flirt their way to acceptance. We are not talking about surburbanites with neighbors and homes, we're talking about urban poor, people who have absolutely, literally, nothing, and no one cares about or responds to them.



Why do you find it comical?

Is your life so unfulfilling that you feel the need to rejoice in the suffering of those that are less fortunate than you?

You have said that you consider yourself a genius despite all abundant evidence to the contrary - do you feel that your delusions are reinforced by being able to perform incredibly easy tasks that are impossible for others due to their social situation?

Somehow I suspect that is what is really going on inside your head. It is an attitude typical of all bigots. Small people become bigots because doing so lets them preserve the delusion that they are special and deserving of their outsized lot in life.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

This is the succinct, civil version of what I said.


You said he was your neighbor...so did you grow up in the projects?
You said his house burned down...so you mean an entire project burned down?

Or was my initial impression correct and you are simply a liar?



Do you spend every penny you earn or acquire in the service of your own self-actualization?

A cellphone is a necessity of life. Have you tried finding a working payphone recently? How many times in your life have you even tried using one?



You're completely missing the point. The point is, if you don't have the means to acquire ID, it's extremely difficult to obtain one.

And it's worth pointing out that the democratic system far, far predates ID. Do you think the Greeks and Romans or even the Victorian British or French whipped out their drivers' license when they went to the polls?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I really wish I had as much direction as you.

and uh, yeah, sorry to derail

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Another question to consider. How do the police handle booking if someone doesn't have ID?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Actually, she said "friend," so kind of makes the question a moot point.

I support ID initiatives, and because of that and certain Supreme Court decisions (the ones that basically obligate us to proving we are who we say we are to the police) think that government-issued IDs should be free and as easily-obtainable as legitimate security and anti-fraud measures will permit.

When I needed to get a driver's license in VA a few years back, I had to get a copy of my birth certificate, on top of all the other crap I already had. I didn't see a point for it, especially since I couldn't order my own birth certificate. I had to get my dad to request a copy for me...fucking ridiculous. Not only did the birth certificate not do anything to prove I was who I said I was, I couldn't request a copy of my own fucking birth certificate. The drones I interfaced with here in VA were super-helpful, but their hands were tied by 9-11 and/or identity theft security measure idiocy from the federal level. I don't think people should have to jump through those kinds of hoops, but even with the hoops, I had everything I needed to get my driver's license in less than two weeks.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

I think I'm getting under Aestu's skin. Haha. I think that is the most comical part of this thread.

I didn't say he was my neighbor. Learn to read. (Maybe this is why you did so poorly in school - Poor reading comprehension?) His story isn't unique. Another (white, but poor) friend (actually a friend of my brother's he met at his first job) had his place burn down a couple years ago and he got out wearing only his underwear, a robe and a backpack. He had no insurance and worked at Target making minimum wage. Somehow he managed to get his documents replaced. I guess it was easy for him because he is white. *insert sarcasm*

I am still having a hard time buying the BS you are slinging. Mostly because of how much time I have spent volunteering for various outreach programs and have witnessed many of the issues that keep the poor from success. Much of it is that they haven't learned how to properly handle money and make poor choices related to delayed gratification.

Getting an ID doesn't have to take all day. Maybe I have a magic unicorn in my pocket because the last time I went to the DMV to replace my stolen license I was there for just under 20 minutes. I have spent much longer waiting in line to vote.

Anyway, I'm wasting my breath here. It was fun watching Aestu go nuts though. Haha.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

Callysta of Reverence

I think I'm getting under Aestu's skin. Haha. I think that is the most comical part of this thread.

I didn't say he was my neighbor. Learn to read. (Maybe this is why you did so poorly in school - Poor reading comprehension?) His story isn't unique. Another (white, but poor) friend (actually a friend of my brother's he met at his first job) had his place burn down a couple years ago and he got out wearing only his underwear, a robe and a backpack. He had no insurance and worked at Target making minimum wage. Somehow he managed to get his documents replaced. I guess it was easy for him because he is white. *insert sarcasm*

I am still having a hard time buying the BS you are slinging. Mostly because of how much time I have spent volunteering for various outreach programs and have witnessed many of the issues that keep the poor from success. Much of it is that they haven't learned how to properly handle money and make poor choices related to delayed gratification.

Getting an ID doesn't have to take all day. Maybe I have a magic unicorn in my pocket because the last time I went to the DMV to replace my stolen license I was there for just under 20 minutes. I have spent much longer waiting in line to vote.

Anyway, I'm wasting my breath here. It was fun watching Aestu go nuts though. Haha.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

Callysta of Reverence

Schadenfreude!

I don't have much relevant to add. But I would be interested in the finished product when you're done with it, Dagery. I'm particularly interested to hear what you get from the interviews.

s^ | Kay