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It's silly to conclude that because one poll found 90% support for "background checks," that translates into a like level of support for this particular piece of legislation. This columnist, for example, would not oppose "universal background checks," given sufficient privacy protections, if we were sure that advocates would stop there rather than push for more draconian gun controls. Since we are quite certain they will not, we were delighted to see the legislation fail.

You can't get anyone to agree to anything because both parties are controlled by their more extreme elements and neither will allow the other even a minor victory because the road to hell is paved incrementally. The right won't give on gun control any more than the left will give on abortion, regardless of whether or not there is a need for legislation to fix a problem with either of those issues.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

You're right in that polls are bullshit.

You can take data and manipulate it to say pretty much whatever you want. Just depends on how you ask the question, and who you ask. That's statistics 101.


You're also right that we in this country, and in the world, try to legislate ourselves out of everything, and it never really works.


However, you're wrong about a few things:

1.) You cite abortion and how Republicans aren't willing to "give" on it. This is a non-starter argument. Abortion is legal and won't be changed. Republicans not "giving" on it is simple stubbornness and pandering to part of their base (the bible thumping, ignorant part that can't recognize that more unwanted babies being born to poor people causes way more issues for the country. Yeah, "we want to cut welfare but force you to have kids you can't afford. And no, we don't want to make contraceptives more available either, because Jesus hates those too." It's the stupidest shit argument ever.)

2.) Legislation is not always a bad thing, the problem is, it's hardly ever implemented effectively. You mention the left not being willing to "give" on the background checks issue...the funny thing, is that the left or, whoever, has already given so much on guns. The NRA has over half of washington in its pocket. You should know this. In order for any kind of gun law to pass, the left will have to have it morphed into something ineffectual and pathetic. Then when more gun violence happens, the right wing media can say "see, gun legislation didn't work"

THAT's how Washington works. It's not that people don't "give" it's that they "kinda give" to offer the appearance of doing shit -- it's that one side wears the other side down until they pass shitty laws that don't really work anyway, or create new issues. It's the problem with a 2 party system, our round-the-click partisan troll news coverage, and arrogant politicians who only care about being re-elected.


Your beloved republicans and hated democrats are all cut from the same cloth, and they're all conspiring to fuck you, Jubber, over. None of them care about what's right. None of them truly care about government. They care about getting re-elected, not rocking the boat, and pleasing their campaign financiers.



That sums it up.

not all forms of abortion are legal, and the left hasn't given on anything else regarding abortion, like forcing the mother to be to listen to the heartbeat before making a decision.

Not saying they should, mind.

The left doesn't want to give up anything they have regarding abortion, and they don't want to have to deal with any more red tape to get the abortion they want/need.


Funny how that doctor with the slaughterhouse didn't really end up on the news.

Holy shit that is evil, Listen to the parasite and learn to love it.

Which states have these repugnant laws?

1.) Not sure which news you were following, but I saw stories all over Slate, Yahoo, Philly.com (because it was local news there), HuffPo etc.

2.) You realize the doctor with the slaughterhouse is basically an argument for laws allowing abortion, right?

His patients were poor, minority women, who had often passed the time where they could have a legal abortion in the state of Pennsylvania. They were so against having a child (that they didn't want, couldn't afford, or both), that they went to a disgusting, dirty, unlicensed abortion clinic and paid in cash...putting their lives at risk (and some even dying because of it), just to have their baby aborted.


You realize this is what it was like before abortion was legal, right? People desperate to terminate pregnancies would go to back alley abortion clinics without proper equipment and put their lives at risk just to end it.

This is fact.


But no, rather than taking the story for what it is (proof of why we should make contraceptives more readily available and abortion needs to remain legal), the right takes it as a sign that all abortions are sick and evil like that.


This ignorance would be comical if it wasn't so goddamn depressing.

par·a·site [par-uh-sahyt] noun 1. an organism that lives on or in an organism of another species, known as the host, from the body of which it obtains nutriment.

Offspring aren't parasites because they aren't a different species than their 'host.'

And it's not republicans that don't give on abortion, Azelma, it's democrats. They fought tooth-and-nail against outlawing partial birth abortions for the same reason republicans are fighting tooth-and-nail against gun control: the slippery slope argument.

There's apparently a big flap going on over a trial in Philly regarding abortion practices. Officials in PA in favor of abortion stopped inspecting facilities and allowed standards to become relaxed to the point that one doctor in Philly was running a clinic where he performed abortions into the third trimester (which is generally illegal). Some of those abortions failed and the child was born, and instead of doing whatever you're supposed to do with a failed abortion, the guy cut the child's spinal cord. He did this at least seven times. His actions only came to light after he killed a patient while he was performing one of these procedures by overdosing her. It was non-story in the national media, and remains so in all but the "usual places" like the Wall Street Journal and Fox News, until Kirsten Powers published an article about it in USA Today. The reason it remains a non-story in most of the press is because it raises some sticky questions about the practice of abortion, and again, we can't give the other side any ammunition because they're extremists fucks who won't stop until you're obligated to carry your rapist's baby to term then fight him for custody after you've been forced to give birth.

So because there are literally people out there who think you should be able to "choose" to bludgeon your 3 month old to death if you have buyers' remorse, we can't have a serious, and obviously much-needed, conversation about what happened in Philadelphia, why the standards slipped, and whether or not we need to re-examine (as we're constantly being told we need to do with anything regarding guns) our morals, ethics, and standards in regards to abortion...just like we can't have a serious discussion about how to restrict access to guns for convicted criminals and the mentally ill because there are literally people out there who think everyone should have an M60 and a rocket launcher in their bedroom. This is because our two-party system encourages a split along arbitrary lines, making decisions involving murky gray areas into black/white decisions controlled by the most extreme voices on either side.

I have no idea how to fix our problems in the confines of our current system. They system itself makes sensible resolutions impossible.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

None, I think this was proposed and then thankfully shot down. I was just using it as an example.

Background checks solve gun thefts. Get with the program.

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Considering how much coverage Imus calling those black chicks nappy headed ho's, Limbaugh calling Fluke a prostitute, and that football player having a fake fucking girlfriend got, I think it's still safe to say that this abortion doctor isn't really getting the relative amount of news coverage he should be getting.

Strawman libertarian arguments make you intelligent.

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It was a joke, but thanks Aestu.

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I'm pretty sure transvaginal ultrasounds (which I'm pretty sure is where they stick a device into your vagina, take pictures of the cells in your uterus, and then show it to you before you're allowed to have an abortion) are fine in a couple states and North Dakota recently passed a bill where you can't have an abortion if there's a heartbeat. My favorite thing about the right is that they're so anti-government until something happens that they don't like.

Also, if you want to legislate your morality on unwanting, incapable, or destitute mothers, you should also be willing to pick up the tab for their children and the lifetimes of misery you're granting them.

Go worry about the children that are actually alive, then when children in this country don't go to bed with bruises or starving you can start devoting your time to clumps of cells in other people's verginas.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

Don't forget the children that get on their knees for priests.

Abortion obviously hasn't been the amazing panacea it was supposed to have been because we still have a lot of unwed, single mothers and various other calamities proponents of its legalization thought it would end. If you want to focus on the problems that children are having, that makes perfect sense, but abortion has done nothing to alleviate any of those problems. Just as you want to address...or for the purposes of making people that disagree with you sound horrible are at least are paying lip service to...the problems of childhood poverty, neglect, and abuse, there are others who want to highlight the things that they think are wrong about abortion as its currently practiced.

I know the idea that some people might be concerned about both those things, maybe even equally concerned, seems ludicrous to you, but since I know this is just one of your typical "come into the thread and shit it up with some wise-ass comments that add nothing to the conversation and disappear" posts, Mayo, I suppose it hardly merits discussion.

I just know that your oh-so-clever sarcasm would be aimed in an entirely different direction if government agencies failed to perform with due diligence and let some other industry/facility off-the-hook by not inspecting them or dealing with their infractions even if they performed the inspections, and we'd be treated to some diatribe about how special interests are yada-yada-yada. You just don't care in this case because this is a special interest with which you share common cause.

I believe abortion needs to be legal. Not because it's right, or even good, but because the alternative is a greater evil. That doesn't mean that I believe you should be able to do the blend-and-suck at any point during a pregnancy, or that a fetus is a "parasite" (great dehumanization language, right there) or clump of cells, or that a delivered baby, no matter how premature, should be butchered on the operating table because its mother doesn't want it. I don't think a woman should be forced to carry her rapist's baby, but I frown on the sort of people who have learned so little from their experiences that they've had multiple abortions.

But thanks for proving the actual point of the thread, which is that we've polarized ourselves to the point where the distinctions don't matter and the extremists define our terms for us. I guess you managed to contribute something despite yourself.



FTFY, wouldn't want to forget your double-speak.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Not sure how anyone got the idea that I'm pro-life.

I'm just vehemently anti partial birth abortion. Early on? Fuck yeah, hose that shit out.