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 Post subject: The Heavy Thread: Good Versus Evil
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:32 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I originally posted this on Wowhead, but I think we'll get a much more interesting and intelligent discussion here, so I'll post it here as well.

I couldn't sleep; I often pace and brood very late at night, and I find I'm most productive at 3AM. This has gotten me evicted twice, actually, as tenants complain about my pacing for hours. I'm not a big guy, but I have heavy footfalls, and walk very, very fast.

Anyway, I was thinking:

There were a lot of classic quests that portrayed the protagonist as more of an adventurer or opportunist, someone looking for action of any sort at all, rather than making incremental progress towards defeating Malygos or Arthas or Deathwing. Obvious examples that come to mind are the quests that involve soul-hunting for demons in exchange for lessons on smithing, macabrely hunting down trolls for their tusks to sell to other unwitting trolls, the Teron Gorefiend questline, and of course those quests involving the Consortium.

I always found those quests more interesting because they served to diversify the action and scenery and aroused the player's imagination. It's much more engaging reading through Lorax's Tale than to hear some random NPC tell me for the thousandth time how bad Arthas is and how righteous the struggle against him is and how many Alliance died to bring me this information.

It's also more in keeping with the traditional lore of adventuring. In Dungeons and Dragons, for example, most protagonists were not Lawful Good but Chaotic Neutral, which served to make the action more diverse. Looking further back, traditional adventurers such as Odysseus or David or Cyrano de Bergerac or Captain Kirk or Robin Hood or Edmond Dantes were not purely good people, pursuing wholly selfless goals, but ambitious and driven individuals who sought adventure.

When you killed a boss in Vanilla or much of TBC, it wasn't that you were getting a bounty for killing him, like slicing open Dracula's coat and seeing gold coins spill out, or washing off some evil object and putting it to good use, it seemed more that you the protagonist were obtaining some piece of plunder. It's hard to define exactly what gave this impression, but I think it was that itemization had a more "improvised" feel to it, rather than X boss dropping Y BiS items, and that the items were often physically part of the boss, rather than just having a name somehow connected to it.

In terms of how I visualize the roleplay of my own character - the squidgoat paladin Aestu - I never saw any sharp contradiction between her often selfish or macabre behavior, as portrayed in quests and general gameplay, and holy vows. Someone once made a forum signature to the effect that priests in WoW are less like the Pope and more like Friar Tuck, and I think I saw my character the same way - fundamentally good, but mired in the sordid realities of Azeroth.

I think the game would be more fun and engaging if devs followed a more traditional "adventuring" model, rather than the sort of "righteous crusader" paradigm we have in WotLK, and, as it seems, Cataclysm.

EDIT: I probably see things from this perspective because it's actually how I see myself in real life.


Last edited by Aestu on Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:40 am  
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Deliciously Trashy
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I'm tempted to respond to this in RP....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:43 am  
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Fat Bottomed Faggot
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Conan the Barbarian.

That is all.

-/-/-/-
Alright I better say a little more.

Conan exemplifies how great protagonists can be when they aren't lawful good.


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."


Last edited by Weena on Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:45 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Weena wrote:
Conan the Barbarian.

That is all.


We have a winner
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:29 am  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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Aestu, this is a great post. I agree that if the game actually had more of an RP feel lore and story wise it would be for the better.

One thing I REALLY would like to see implemented in Cata is the goblins who formed arenas during TBC now have a player bounty system..

I see the correlation between the level of the character and the epicness of the content, so to speak.

Level 18 players kind of screw around in Westfall, killing common thugs such as the defias, but as your character grows and develops both in gear, stats, level and such, the encounters and challenges you face grow as well.


Would be nice to have a return to that 'the whole world is ahead of you and yours for the taking' expansive RP feel that is generally experienced while leveling...


Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:34 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I prefer to be a hero in game as well as IRL


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:36 pm  
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French Faggot
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The character my warrior is named after is actually from Dungeons and Dragons. He's the level 30 (Fighter 20, Wizard 7, Rogue 3, which is retarded high for those of you who don't know anything about D&D) chosen of a god of tyranny. More accurately, he's the former chosen of said god, because the god is dead. He's Neutral Evil.

I always envisioned Yuratuhl as being Chaotic Neutral leaning into evil, because he's not only a rogue but also a troll.

Playing a ret paladin makes you feel righteous though. In the crusadery, face-crushing sense of the word.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:44 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Yuratuhl wrote:
Playing a ret paladin makes you feel righteous though. In the crusadery, face-crushing sense of the word.


Unless you're a belf. Then you just feel like a poser.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:59 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I just yelled at some old fart in the bank cuz he was yelling at a cashier for receiving junk mail.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:04 pm  
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Feckless Fool
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Weena wrote:
Conan the Barbarian.

That is all.

-/-/-/-
Alright I better say a little more.

Conan exemplifies how great protagonists can be when they aren't lawful good.

Cohen the barbarian is better.

Ghenghiz Cohen, known as Cohen the Barbarian is a hero in the classical sense, ie, a professional thief, brawler and ravisher of women.

The man who introduced the world to the concept of "wholesale" destruction, Cohen is the Discworld's greatest warrior hero, renowned across the Disc for his exploits rescuing maidens, destroying the mad high priests of dark cults, looting ancient ruins, and so on.

On his first appearance in the series he is already an old man, but still tough enough to handle anything the world can throw at him; his opponents often underestimate him because of his age, realising too late that a man who does for a living what Cohen does and nevertheless survives to such an age must be very good at it indeed. Cohen does not know how old he is exactly. In The Light Fantastic, he says he is eighty seven years old, but in others he estimates that he is between 90 and 95 years of age.[4]

Cohen is described as a skinny old man, with a long white beard hanging down below his loincloth, and wearing a patch over one eye. His most distinguishing feature, however, is his smile — his unique dentures are made out of troll teeth, which consist of pure diamond[5] and were inspired when Twoflower showed him his own (more typical) set.

The greatest problems now facing Cohen come from outliving the heroic age and finding himself in a civilised modern world where great battles and astonishing rescues happen rarely except in stories — which is ironic given that the Discworld runs on narrative. One of the rare Discworld short stories, "Troll Bridge", tells of Cohen setting out to slay a troll, only to end up reminiscing with it about the good old days when things were black and white and everyone respected the traditions. Part of Cohen's danger to normal people is that as a barbarian hero he has extreme problems interpreting such things as empty bravado — as a man of his word, he naturally assumes that anyone else saying something like 'I would rather die than betray the Emperor' fully means it. This led to the deaths of several guards and courtiers in the Agatean Empire before everyone wised up.

In Interesting Times Cohen became Emperor of the Agatean Empire, having conquered it with his allies, the Silver Horde (see below). This was intended to be a sort of retirement plan, but Cohen and his chums became bored and then abandoned the Empire in The Last Hero, in which Cohen decides to express his displeasure with the modern world by "returning fire to the gods, with interest". After the rather unsuccessful attempt, he and his friends escaped on the backs of horses belonging to the Valkyries and rode into the sky, seeking to explore the outside of space. His current whereabouts are unknown.

Given a barbarian hero's attractiveness to nubile young maidens, Cohen has quite a lot of children; in The Last Hero he mentions casually that he has dozens. The only one mentioned by name in the novels is Conina, who appears in Sourcery. She wishes to be a hairdresser, but Discworld-style genetics keep getting in the way, causing her to instinctively kill people who threaten her. She was last seen in an amorous relationship with Nijel the Destroyer. Interestingly, she says she actually knew Cohen and that he took an interest in her education — such as setting a length of corridor with a variety of traps for some heroic training.

In The Light Fantastic, Cohen helps the other two protagonists, Rincewind and Twoflower, save a seventeen-year-old girl named Bethan, who was to be offered as a sacrifice. They fall in love, mainly owing to Bethan's patience and skill at curing Cohen's back problems, and decide to get married, despite Rincewind's apprehensions about their age difference. At the end of the book they are not present, and it is assumed that they have left for their marriage. Cohen does mention that he has been married before, however.


I am THE man.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:30 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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I don't get this thread at all. Do we just say, "Hay, I see my character as X or Y", or do we post heroes or what?

So over my head I'm 'fraid. :(
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:09 am  
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Fat Bottomed Faggot
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:53 pm
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quadtard wrote:
Weena wrote:
Conan the Barbarian.

That is all.

-/-/-/-
Alright I better say a little more.

Conan exemplifies how great protagonists can be when they aren't lawful good.

Cohen the barbarian is better.

Ghenghiz Cohen, known as Cohen the Barbarian is a hero in the classical sense, ie, a professional thief, brawler and ravisher of women.

The man who introduced the world to the concept of "wholesale" destruction, Cohen is the Discworld's greatest warrior hero, renowned across the Disc for his exploits rescuing maidens, destroying the mad high priests of dark cults, looting ancient ruins, and so on.

On his first appearance in the series he is already an old man, but still tough enough to handle anything the world can throw at him; his opponents often underestimate him because of his age, realising too late that a man who does for a living what Cohen does and nevertheless survives to such an age must be very good at it indeed. Cohen does not know how old he is exactly. In The Light Fantastic, he says he is eighty seven years old, but in others he estimates that he is between 90 and 95 years of age.[4]

Cohen is described as a skinny old man, with a long white beard hanging down below his loincloth, and wearing a patch over one eye. His most distinguishing feature, however, is his smile — his unique dentures are made out of troll teeth, which consist of pure diamond[5] and were inspired when Twoflower showed him his own (more typical) set.

The greatest problems now facing Cohen come from outliving the heroic age and finding himself in a civilised modern world where great battles and astonishing rescues happen rarely except in stories — which is ironic given that the Discworld runs on narrative. One of the rare Discworld short stories, "Troll Bridge", tells of Cohen setting out to slay a troll, only to end up reminiscing with it about the good old days when things were black and white and everyone respected the traditions. Part of Cohen's danger to normal people is that as a barbarian hero he has extreme problems interpreting such things as empty bravado — as a man of his word, he naturally assumes that anyone else saying something like 'I would rather die than betray the Emperor' fully means it. This led to the deaths of several guards and courtiers in the Agatean Empire before everyone wised up.

In Interesting Times Cohen became Emperor of the Agatean Empire, having conquered it with his allies, the Silver Horde (see below). This was intended to be a sort of retirement plan, but Cohen and his chums became bored and then abandoned the Empire in The Last Hero, in which Cohen decides to express his displeasure with the modern world by "returning fire to the gods, with interest". After the rather unsuccessful attempt, he and his friends escaped on the backs of horses belonging to the Valkyries and rode into the sky, seeking to explore the outside of space. His current whereabouts are unknown.

Given a barbarian hero's attractiveness to nubile young maidens, Cohen has quite a lot of children; in The Last Hero he mentions casually that he has dozens. The only one mentioned by name in the novels is Conina, who appears in Sourcery. She wishes to be a hairdresser, but Discworld-style genetics keep getting in the way, causing her to instinctively kill people who threaten her. She was last seen in an amorous relationship with Nijel the Destroyer. Interestingly, she says she actually knew Cohen and that he took an interest in her education — such as setting a length of corridor with a variety of traps for some heroic training.

In The Light Fantastic, Cohen helps the other two protagonists, Rincewind and Twoflower, save a seventeen-year-old girl named Bethan, who was to be offered as a sacrifice. They fall in love, mainly owing to Bethan's patience and skill at curing Cohen's back problems, and decide to get married, despite Rincewind's apprehensions about their age difference. At the end of the book they are not present, and it is assumed that they have left for their marriage. Cohen does mention that he has been married before, however.


I don't think so, Tim.


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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