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This is a topic that I'm currently in the middle of a mildly heated, several day debate about.

I have a friend who is a Russian Jew. She is a member of a couple of Russian groups, and several Jewish groups. Some of them are ethnically distinct for practical purposes (they watch Russian movies, they play Russian games, for example... a non-Russian speaker would not really be able to participate). Some groups are ethnically distinct for no practical purpose (the Jewish Boston 20s and 30s Outdoors Group, for example, goes hiking and skiing... neither of which are Jewish activities, they simply only invite Jewish people).

I have a problem with this on several levels.

1) Being from the south, I have seen casual racism before... racism isn't always malicious. It's not always thinking other races or ethnicities are beneath you, just that they are somehow distinct from you. It reminds me of whites-only country clubs. Even at it's most benign, this mentality can still be hurtful, both personally and socially. It's just something I am instinctively averse to. The thing that is telling to me is the explanation that these groups are meant to "preserve their culture", which of course is exactly the euphemistic reasoning given by a lot of southerners for segregation.

2) It also bothers me on a social level. I guess I understand the desire to congregate with "your" people, especially if you're an immigrant. To a degree it makes sense, it gives you a solid footing. However, it quickly becomes detrimental if you don't allow yourself to expand beyond that group. Though I was tactful enough not to point this out to her, my friend's social circle is almost entirely Russian Jews. She did not know any of them before moving here, they are all people she has met since. She sees them at almost every event, because she goes to all these exclusive events where only they go. I am her friend, but it's honestly a bit difficult to be her friend sometimes knowing that a lot of the activities she goes to I can't go. All her other friends get to go, so she ends up surrounding herself with a very homogeneous group.

Which leads to how it bothers me on a more personal level...

3) I have Russian and Jewish friends. I don't give a shit that they are Russian or Jewish, and I would never even consider excluding them from any activity because of it. It's not a good feeling to be excluded. It's not nice to have all your friends go out and spend a weekend skiing while you sit at home, even though if asked you would have loved to go.

The focus on Russian or Jewish groups is only because that's what I'm encountering right now, but this could be any ethnicity.

One exchange went basically like this:
Her: Why would you want to watch Russian movies that you don't understand?
Me: How do I watch French movies? Or Japanese movies? Subtitles.
Her: We don't watch movies with subtitles.
Me: Because you didn't invite anyone who needs them. You didn't intend for anyone to be there who doesn't speak the language, so you didn't have to. The content isn't deciding who to invite, it's who you invited that's deciding the content.



...

I am surprised to say I see MORE of this in the north than I did in the south. Religious groups segment off in that way in the south, and there are pretty clear divides along economic class lines. But generally (if you're not out with backwater rednecks), no one gives a shit if what ethnicity you are. I don't think I ever saw a "Jewish" group down there, though I knew a lot of Jews. The only thing I can think of along those lines was the Jewish fraternity at my college.


I think that forming a group based on common interests makes perfect sense, and that it might even be a logical place to start looking within your own ethnic community. However, it is highly naive to believe that those interests are bound to any ethnicity or even culture, and that these types of groups only serve to exclude people who would otherwise fit in.



What are your thoughts?

Akina: bitch I will stab you in the face

I find it funny how you're giving this message about everyone should accept everyone etc etc and then throw in a line "oh except for those backwater rednecks."


Oh rednecks, the only ethnic group its still politically correct to shit-talk.

For one, redneck is not an ethnicity. I specifically said it makes sense to congregate by common interests, which is what defines rednecks. Their interests, their views, etc. I'm talking about arbitrary distinctions of race.

And second, I know a lot of rednecks and I don't exclude them anyways.

But really, redneck is not a race, and your comment is kinda dumb.

Akina: bitch I will stab you in the face

race and ethnicity are totally different. however, let me change it to social groups. that better?

they're poor ignorant white people. If you know so many "rednecks" you'd know how hard it is for some of them to move from their podunk trailer miles from anywhere to the city and jobs. Had you said something about those alley dwelling negroes in the inner city(poor ignorant black people) someone would've been up in arms about it.

Race and ethnicity are related.

And I'm not talking about rednecks, or social classes, or social groups in the sense of a certain broad group of people.

I'm talking about groups in the meaning of the word a distinct set of people. Like a local book club, or a group that meets up to play poker on Thursdays. And I'm talking about those groups that are filtered by ethnicity, sometimes as well as common interest, but often times with no regard for common interests.

I'm talking about people who think "I will hang out with people of my own national identity only."

Akina: bitch I will stab you in the face

well you also talked about this, which is what i'm talking about.


be nice to those other groups of people, but not rednecks.


Here's a question then: What do you think about affirmative action, racial/ethnic quotas at schools, "all black" schools and things of that nature?

I didn't say to be nice to anyone, and especially not to everyone. I am talking about groups that form based on arbitrary criteria that have no practical purpose.

If you hate someone personally, there is every practical reason to not include them. If you are friends with someone but they're not of German decent and you're going to Bratwurst and Beer night, they can still like brats and beer and might enjoy going.

Akina: bitch I will stab you in the face

Affirmative action - highly flawed solution to a real problem. A more elegant solution would be preferred, but it's difficult to solve the problem forcefully (in other words, legislatively) without the result coming out like a blunt instrument at best. Probably shouldn't be based on race, should be based on economic class.

Blacks only schools - actually a perfect example of what I have a problem with. Things like this might have made sense when it was the only school they had available, but that's simply not the case anymore and if these exist they should cease to exist.

Akina: bitch I will stab you in the face

A prime example of someone hijacking a legit thread topic and turning it into something really stupid based on one sentence that didn't mean anything.

In response to the real topic, I feel that this happens way more than it should. No, it's not only Jewish people who do this, but a lot of groups. Skiing is clearly not a Jewish-only interest, and I would feel offended if I was friends with someone who didn't invite me because I'm not Jewish. That is a really stupid reason to not invite someone to a bloody skiing trip. Same goes for the brats and beer night. Who doesn't like brats and beer?

A lot of groups on my campus, however, always include "All are welcome!" quips on their event posters, so hopefully the aforementioned practices will be dying out soon. Yay progression!

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Who cares if they go on a ski trip and only invite members of their own group?

Are you against church youth group ski trips too?

Yes, it's bigotry, and this is actually why I as a Jewish person go to extraordinary lengths to avoid other Jewish people. It's no different than Christian fundamentalism or being a skinhead - seeking a sense of superiority through association with a particular group.

A lot of these so-called Russian Jews aren't Jewish at all, they just adopt the religious label so they can file for refugee status and mooch off Jewish institutions.

This is also why I strongly feel Madoff's victims deserved what they got - because the only reason many of them fell for this guy, and the reason they were out for blood when they got gouged, was that they trusted him because he was Jewish. It was bigotry by way of positive bias.

Russian Jews in general are a pretty disgusting group of people. They are a very amoral people, not because they are Jewish (which they likely are not) but because they are Russian and their absence of integrity reflects that culture.

A while back there was a discussion about these people at my synagogue. "If we were talking about Gentiles the way we are talking about these people, it would be scandalous."

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Russian get togethers make a little bit of sense to me, only in that the barrier is a language barrier. Obviously sometimes that is one that is more strictly enforced than it need be (movies can have subtitles, you can play a game in either language and it's the same damn game), but at least it's an actual barrier. And besides, a lot of these people are immigrants so I can see a desire to feel like you're home again. It's not necessarily a good thing, but I can see where it comes from.

The Jewish groups kind of blow my mind. These aren't immigrants from Israel. These are 7th generation Jewish brats from Brookline, MA whose only "Jewish" cultural knowledge is what they learned in school and in temple. They are more American than they are anything else, yet they feel the need to identify as Jewish primarily.

As if that means something. It's not like they're an oppressed minority here. Hell, I know more Jewish people in my neighborhood than otherwise. The biggest building on my street is a temple.

It's reminiscent to me of black people who would never survive a day in Africa because they're 100% American, and yet they try to "find" themselves and start wearing ridiculous afro-centric clothing that Africans don't wear. Like they're getting back to their tribal roots when they don't even know what tribe their lineage comes from (as if it came from only one at this point anyways).

The asshole side of me has toyed with the idea of asking one of the Jewish groups if they could direct me to their non-Jewish counterpart where only Gentiles are invited, and we can go ski on the same mountain at the same time but never talk to each other.

Akina: bitch I will stab you in the face

Discrimination in any form is utterly stupid. As far as Affirmative Action goes, I am adamantly opposed to it in any form.

It is the digital age of the internet and blogs. Word WILL get out if companies practice blatantly discriminatory hiring practices. Those companies will cease to exist by way of boycotts and negative publicity.

On the other side, companies that discriminate when hiring whites over minorities or a minority over an otherwise qualified white person by way of AA are only fucking themselves.

Hire the MOST qualified person for the job, regardless of skin color- and your company will do well.

The second we start requiring quotas to be met and qualified candidates to be discarded simply due to how much pigmentation is in their skin that puts a large handicap on the companies.


And thirdly, Affirmative Action is definitely a negative thing because it basically gives off the message that minorities can't just be hired on their own merits and outshine their white counterparts without government intervention.

Quite honestly, I'd be insulted on multiple levels by the existence of AA if I were a minority.




In response to Dek: yeah, I pretty much agree with you. I think it's fucked up how people who have experienced so much discrimination towards themselves still actively participate in discrimination against others.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

Thats one of the things about this "melting pot" I dont really like.

One nation under God but then we seperate into African American, Latino American, Caucasian American(WTF IS CAUCASIAN) etc etc.

I'm an American first and foremost, and identify myself as such. Why other people who live here don't, i have no idea.

Actually, an interested psychological point I heard recently (can't remember from where, a movie or something? I don't know...)

A nerd doesn't fantasize about being friends with the bully, he fantasizes about turning the tables and beating the bully up. It's sad but true that people who are oppressed are no better than their oppressors and would do the same in revenge given the chance.

People are stupid.

Akina: bitch I will stab you in the face