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 Post subject: The Noob Culture, And The Playing Of WoW
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:58 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I posted this elsewhere, of course, but I'm hoping for more interesting feedback from you people =)

Well, in all fairness, the individual in question wasn't a noob. At least that's how it seemed to me, though...

This individual in question is a young and inexperienced but very intelligent, eager and skilled raider. He played somewhat in vanilla/TBC, but at the time his young age and the greater complexity and open-ended nature of the gameworld prevented him from being able to play the game effectively, and began to do so to a meaningful extent in WotLK. Despite this, he's fully proficient as an effective raider.

We were chatting on vent after a reasonably successful raid, and conversation turned to other games. I mentioned Super Mario Bros., and was shocked to learn he'd never played any of the early games. Really I should not have been so surprised, given his relatively young age - he is about nine years younger than me - but still, it surprised me, because he referred to himself as a "hardcore gamer", and I suppose I considered experience with these games as fundamental to that definition.

It was an interesting dialogue because it opened up a whole new understanding for me of what really is a generational gap that affects World of Warcraft itself. Of course, he struggled to understand how that really long jump in World 8-1 could possibly be difficult. Or how games with 256-color graphics like Alpha Centauri or Final Fantasy IV could possibly be considered classics.

I stopped on my way home from a meeting on campus at a Goodwill. I was perusing the bookshelves and came across something rather interesting: a Sim City 2000 User's Manual.

Now, many who read this thread are too young to remember the state of gaming in those days. Sim City 2000, like many games of its time, came with actual paper documentation, and it was not considered strange or undesirable that this documentation was voluminous. Nor was this merely the case with video games - Magic: The Gathering was popular in elementary schools fifteen years ago, and it came with a 60-page booklet densely written in 6pt Times New Roman.

So, Sim City 2000 user manual - not the strategy guide is...guess how long?
Go ahead, guess.

...

Answer is: One hundred thirty-eight pages. Longer than I remembered.

I flipped through it. One particularly interesting blurb stuck out:

Quote:
When you start your own city, there are no time limits to beat and no conditions to meet. There is no winning or losing. You are the sole judge, passing judgement upon yourself. The only two criteria in this judgement are your own enjoyment and the quality of life of your Sims.


As anyone who has played SC2K knows, this isn't entirely true. It is, in fact, possible to "lose" the game if your city falls too deep into debt (in which case a "delegation of concerned citizens escorts you from your office"), and it is possible to "win" the game by building several dozen Launch Arcologies, which will eventually "take off". In practice, however, these specific conditions do not influence the general play of the game any more than the completion of cutting-edge encounters such as heroic Lich King and Sinestra influence the general play of WoW.

Quote:
Strategies
You can turn off disasters in the Disasters game menu - if you're a wimp.


Do you want to be a wimp? DO YOU?

As in WoW, the game allows for a "casual" level of play. And as in WoW, the game manual, despite being highly detailed, is not fully comprehensive, and to reach the elite level of play it is necessary either to spend enough time playing the game to recognize patterns and understand the underlying mechanics, or to read external resources. However, in stark contrast to WoW, the game developers are brutally unapologetic towards those who would refuse its open-ended challenge.

Now compare that to the firestorm evoked by Ghostcrawler's rather diplomatic blog post.

Very few people who bought Super Mario Bros. 3 actually beat it, and fewer still ever looted the amazingly powerful and fun Hammer Suit, which was not obtainable for the majority of players who beat the game and did so by skipping to the final World with the Warp Whistles. The low completion rate was not considered a design flaw. Nor did SC2K's forbidding demands on the player (by the standards of games in general) prevent it from being universally recognized as a classic.

Is it so strange a video game can be recognized as a "classic"? In Aestu, I see Cecil, just as in Cecil, I saw Aeneas.

Now, my post is, in fact about WoW. Here in WoW, the game has gone from being fully open-ended and exploration based in Vanilla - as SC2K was - allowing play at many different levels and to the preference of diverse temperaments and intellects, to being focused on completion and obtaining the internal rewards of the game as the desired outcome.

WoW, these days, is structured around things like VP rewards for completing the daily, and "welfare" tier put on the vendor for the benefit of those who can't or won't kill raid bosses. That is to say, the focus is on achieving specific, definable goals in the game, and that those goals should be achieved by a decent portion of the playerbase.

This much was known to me. But with this conversation in vent and re-reading this manual after over a decade, what really struck me was the generational gap, something that wouldn't be expected considering nine years is not so long and I myself accept being referred to in professional settings as a "kid". And of course not all people my age subscribe to all my opinions.

Still, I feel I have a lot in common with this younger individual, and it's very interesting to see how differences in the culture we grew up in affect our take on, and style of playing, WoW - those accustomed to playing for exploration and have a strictly internal value system ("because it is there") versus those accustomed to playing according to definable criteria and have a strictly external value system ("because that is the point").

I think many players have had similar experiences - of course, immature players are what they are, but just as significant, I think, and lost on many, is how changes in the culture of gaming over quite a short period have influenced World of Warcraft's continued development.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: The Noob Culture, And The Playing Of WoW
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:02 pm  
Pasty Homosexual Nerd Who Talks About Politics
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shut up
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 Post subject: Re: The Noob Culture, And The Playing Of WoW
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:23 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Krizen wrote:
shut up


Make me


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: The Noob Culture, And The Playing Of WoW
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:24 pm  
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Kunckleheaded Knob
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TLDR question? :(


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 Post subject: Re: The Noob Culture, And The Playing Of WoW
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:09 pm  
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Stupid Schlemiel
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I'm starting to get burnt out and I log on to raid places I'm really not interested in and bosses I don't really enjoy fighting.

I do so though because I have an obligation to the people that I play with. Not that I don't enjoy the company but I'm finding less and less desire to play.

I think cata was great but its kinda just lost its flare now.

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 Post subject: Re: The Noob Culture, And The Playing Of WoW
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:16 pm  
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Kunckleheaded Knob
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Lucinth wrote:
I'm starting to get burnt out and I log on to raid places I'm really not interested in and bosses I don't really enjoy fighting.

I do so though because I have an obligation to the people that I play with. Not that I don't enjoy the company but I'm finding less and less desire to play.

I think cata was great but its kinda just lost its flare now.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk


You also don't play intensely, at a very high level of gaming for Wow. I'm sure heroic Al'akir, Heroic Nef, Lady Sinestra, all those bosses are very fun. If you do harder stuff, the game will always continue to be fun. It's not that the expansion is "bad," it's just you enjoyed the others much more.

Looking back at Burning Crusade, I was awful, but it was still much more fun. The instances were more fun to play around in, the content wasn't harder I don't feel, I feel more players adapted to harder bosses so equaling hard bosses to extremely hard bosses for the hard core top players isn't the easiest. Players will complain if things are to hard, which leaves the skilled players with less fun. Trust me, I'm not saying that there aren't awful players out there, there are. (Especially the ones that are fully determined they're good, but they aren't the slighetes bit and can't do simple things.)

Also, PTR/Beta ruined Wow imo. Stupidest thing ever, but I don't think it's wrong for them doing it.

I believe the games are more fun when you're not as good at them to be honest. Back in Burning Crusade, I never looked up information on hunters, bosses, or anything. I logged on, played, enjoyed every minute of it. When you're bad at something, you want to strive to get better. Once you get better you wish you were bad again, the kind of fun you had when you were on that skill of gaming. That's why I enjoy playing betas of games, but never playing them. I get a taste of the game, but then start to learn the game very fast, and I lose enjoyment. I guess that's the major thing I see in the "flare" of wow.


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 Post subject: Re: The Noob Culture, And The Playing Of WoW
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:24 pm  
Pasty Homosexual Nerd Who Talks About Politics
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Aestu wrote:
Krizen wrote:
shut up


Make me


wanna fight
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 Post subject: Re: The Noob Culture, And The Playing Of WoW
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:30 pm  
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Stupid Schlemiel
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Maybe. I don't know. I'm thinking I need to break a bit.

After I pay back my virtual debts of course.

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A man chooses, a slave obeys.
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 Post subject: Re: The Noob Culture, And The Playing Of WoW
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:33 pm  
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Pinheaded Pissant
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Man, I loved me some SimCity2000. Fucking awesome game.


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 Post subject: Re: The Noob Culture, And The Playing Of WoW
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:52 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
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I don't see how vanilla WoW was any more "fully open-ended and exploration based" than Cata. For most people the endgame was either doing 40 mans or trying to rank up in PvP. There really wasn't much else to do at 60. I suppose you could argue that doing things like exploring every zone or getting lots of reps was different before there were achievements for them, but you were still doing the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Noob Culture, And The Playing Of WoW
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:58 pm  
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Pinheaded Pissant
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There was a whole time in Vanilla when there was only one 40 man raid, it wasn't accessible to the absolute vast majority of players, there was no formal pvp system, and huge amounts of the map were just full of random shit that wasn't actually used in game yet.

At that time, the world was great for exploring and most people weren't in raids all the time.

Of course, you can't really recreate that unless you create two huge new continents, don't use most of the land yet, and actually make the initial raid highly unapproachable without lots of gear from 5 mans plus specialty gear (ie fire resist for MC).

It isn't going to happen again in wow, but that isn't the fault of the players.


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 Post subject: Re: The Noob Culture, And The Playing Of WoW
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:08 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
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dek wrote:
There was a whole time in Vanilla when there was only one 40 man raid, it wasn't accessible to the absolute vast majority of players, there was no formal pvp system, and huge amounts of the map were just full of random shit that wasn't actually used in game yet.

At that time, the world was great for exploring and most people weren't in raids all the time.

Of course, you can't really recreate that unless you create two huge new continents, don't use most of the land yet, and actually make the initial raid highly unapproachable without lots of gear from 5 mans plus specialty gear (ie fire resist for MC).

It isn't going to happen again in wow, but that isn't the fault of the players.


True, I guess the early lack of content left a lot of room for exploration. There were only a few months though between people hitting 60 and more content being added.


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 Post subject: Re: The Noob Culture, And The Playing Of WoW
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:10 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
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Does anyone remember playing the LK beta or looking at loot tables and crafted items and thinking "ok so there will be frost resist needed for a lot of bosses since the crafted has FR" and then laughing at the first frost resist fight and wearing your regular gear the next week. I always was told that the Lady Shiraz (or however it is spelled) was the road block in BT because of the shadow resist gear needed so raiders would clear up to her and then farm trash for mats. The lock set with fire resist for the blind guy in SSC was suppose to be a road block too and then when wrath came out there was basically no requirements before raiding. Hell, to get in the first raid of BC you had to run a long chain that took you to each major instance hub and all over the freaking world. Heroics took at least honored rep (originally revered but nerfed around the time SSC and BT were current} to even walk in. My rogue hit level 80 at 4 pm on a Saturday, by 8 she was in Naxx 10 when Ulduar was the current raid, by the end of the night she was in almost all epics. When we picked back up the raid Sunday night since no one planned on running more than 2 hours or so she was my first toon with The Undying title. Thats how easy it was to raid in Wrath. Granted some heroic modes or hard modes took a little effort, general raiding was too damn easy. Cata raiding is proving to take some coordination but I would actually like to see more roadblocks to that you actually had to do a little work to get into a raid.


9 level 90s and 10 85s, Damn I need another hobby.
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 Post subject: Re: The Noob Culture, And The Playing Of WoW
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:33 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
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attunements were fine I always thought, I don't see what would be so hard to say making the keys BoA for those that don't want to do a 20 quest multiple raid instance chain on every max level toon they have. Not having anything makes it too simple and doesn't even separate those who can't even put in minimal effort such as getting attuned or in Cata's case, getting appropriate ilvl without cheating the system.
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 Post subject: Re: The Noob Culture, And The Playing Of WoW
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:54 pm  
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Twittering Twat
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Funny but I feel the same thing for your generation of gamers. You guys never really got the experience of the arcade in its heyday or the chance as a 10y/o to make your own computer game which was just about as good as anything you could sucker your parents into buying.

Also dek, if you recall strathalhom and scholomance used to be the end-game before Onyxia and pvp was an epic world crashing event in tauren mill and outside capitols before AV.
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