This is What's Wrong with America

Usdk · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:42 am

So I'm assuming if the parents are that worried about their kids allergy, they've probably had the kid tested for allergies. I mean if its a life and death allergy, and they discover it the hard way, the kid would have died, right? So I'm assuming they got their kid tested for allergies as well as modern medicine can do.

And the doctors must have told the parents that its some serious shit. Thats the logic i'm following when I read this thread.

So this is going to turn into another thread about aestu hating doctors for being "pretenders" and other such names he's going to use, when really he has no fucking idea what hes talking about?

Sorry azelma, your thread is about to die and yet another thread is going to get Aestu'd.

Mns · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:45 am

Usdk wrote:

So this is going to turn into another thread about aestu hating doctors for being "pretenders" and other such names he's going to use, when really he has no fucking idea what hes talking about?

No dude, you don't understand. Aestu ate fried chicken with peanuts around someone with a peanut allergy so therefore, its perfectly fine because nobody has varying severity of peanut allergies because this one kid didn't. Coincidentally, Aestu eating fried chicken with peanuts also makes him a gourmand because an asian guy made it for him.

Aestu · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:54 am

Mayo, I don't know why you're obsessing about the flavoring of General Tso's chicken and brown sauce etc considering I never even mentioned any such thing. There were definitely peanuts in my food because I could visually see them so I don't understand why we're arguing about this.

That you would accuse/insinuate me of editing Wikipedia for the purpose of winning this thread is really and truly insane. That is, if you are making the accusation in good faith - it seems a distinct probability that you are trying to set some sort of rhetorical trap connected to my allegations about LFD, which would be illogical considering the two scenarios have nothing in common. I don't understand your intense passion about this issue.

There is no evidence to suggest this peanut allergy is different than any other. This has been said several times. It is a common food allergy. The food allergy is common enough that there are labels on food products advising the presence of peanuts.

The Wikipedia page is interesting and informative and makes reference to primary sources:

Quote:

Harvard pediatrician Dr. Michael C. Young notes in his book The Peanut Allergy Answer Book that while such secondary contact might pose a risk to an allergic individual, the occurrence of a reaction is rare and limited to minor symptoms. Some reactions have been noted to be psychogenic in nature, the result of conditioning and belief rather than a true chemical reaction.Blinded, placebo-controlled studies by Sicherer et al. were unable to produce any reactions using the odor of peanut butter or its mere proximity.

Laelia · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:58 am

Aestu wrote:

Also, the only reason for frequent handwashing WITHOUT antibacterial soap is hypochondria. Water is sticky, and all organisms need water to live. Sinks, even if they appear clean, are cesspools of disease. If you are not using antibacterial soap, all you are doing is exposing yourself to bugs, providing the bugs with a means of adhering to your hands, and with what they need to live, picking up whatever bugs whoever else used the sink had, and dropping your own off in turn.

If you want to clean your hands in a meaningful and effective way, either use antibacterial soap, or just DRY your hands without washing them.

This is wrong. The purpose of washing your hands with soap is for the soap to make your hands slippery so that vigorous rubbing under running water will cause microorganisms to slide off your hands. Proper hand washing with normal soap does reduce the number of microorganisms on your hands, and it's been experimentally demonstrated to reduce disease transmission in a variety of settings (including schools). Antibacterial soap doesn't seem to be much more effective than regular soap as a routine measure, and routine use of antibacterials is unwise due to the danger of bacteria developing resistance.

Aestu · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:59 am

Usdk wrote:

So I'm assuming if the parents are that worried about their kids allergy, they've probably had the kid tested for allergies. I mean if its a life and death allergy, and they discover it the hard way, the kid would have died, right? So I'm assuming they got their kid tested for allergies as well as modern medicine can do.

And the doctors must have told the parents that its some serious shit. Thats the logic i'm following when I read this thread.

Or maybe they didn't.

Usdk wrote:

So this is going to turn into another thread about aestu hating doctors for being "pretenders" and other such names he's going to use, when really he has no fucking idea what hes talking about?

Actually, I said the opposite.

Part of having respect for science is disdaining pseudoscience. Religion is a human affliction not specific to religion. See: "scientology".

Usdk wrote:

Sorry azelma, your thread is about to die and yet another thread is going to get Aestu'd.

If that is so it is because the man is being put before the argument. I've spoken only of my own experience and what the known facts are. To fixate on me is small.

Laelia wrote:

This is wrong. The purpose of washing your hands with soap is for the soap to make your hands slippery so that vigorous rubbing under running water will cause microorganisms to slide off your hands. Proper hand washing with normal soap does reduce the number of microorganisms on your hands, and it's been experimentally demonstrated to reduce disease transmission in a variety of settings (including schools). Antibacterial soap doesn't seem to be much more effective than regular soap as a routine measure, and routine use of antibacterials is unwise due to the danger of bacteria developing resistance.

And what I am saying is that it really doesn't matter if kids get a bit sick. As to mitigating the occurrence resistance to ubiquitous antibacterials...gl with that.

Mns wrote:

No dude, you don't understand. Aestu ate fried chicken with peanuts around someone with a peanut allergy so therefore, its perfectly fine because nobody has varying severity of peanut allergies because this one kid didn't. Coincidentally, Aestu eating fried chicken with peanuts also makes him a gourmand because an asian guy made it for him.

What is your point, Mayo? What evidence do we have that this child is seriously endangered in the way you describe? That he has this singular, unrealistically intense occurrence of what is a common allergy?

Usdk · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:06 pm

Confirm Aestu'd.

Laelia · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:08 pm

Mns wrote:

2) Pecans aren't native to Asia, so how they can be incorporated in "authentic Chinese cuisine" is beyond me (hell, I've never even seen pecans in any sort of legitimate chinese restaurant).

I'm not going to argue about the role of pecans in Chinese cuisine, but the origin of the ingredients isn't really relevant. Lots of ingredients, including tomatoes, bell peppers, potatoes, and sweet potatoes are native to the New World, but they are now essential parts of many Old World cuisines.

Aestu wrote:

As to mitigating the occurrence resistance to ubiquitous antibacterials...gl with that.

The point is that antibacterials shouldn't be ubiquitous. Of course that's not likely to happen because most people are uninformed or misinformed and think antibacterial=good.

Dvergar · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:17 pm

Even while on ignore the profound stupidity of Aestu's arguments are sufficiently carried through the quotes of others.

Here is the very same doctor he quoted answering questions for the site pbskidsgo.org:

http://pbskids.org/arthur/parentsteache ... rgy_QA.pdf

If you scroll down to number 7 you can see that this doctor suggests schools do exactly what the school in question is doing.

If you look at number 5 you can see how incidental contact with peanut butter or peanut oil may result in a minor rash, but if the child wipes their eyes, picks their nose (she is a kid), or eats a meal it can cause a "dangerous reaction".

Aestu · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:39 pm

I read what he wrote:

Quote:

One theory for [the increase in allergies] is the Hygiene Hypothesis, which suggests that because children now have fewer infections (due to improved hygiene), their immune systems are more likely to target other things such as items in the environment and diet, resulting in allergies.

Quote:

5. Can someone allergic to eating peanuts also have a reaction by touching or smelling
peanuts?

A study from Mt. Sinai Medical Center in 2003 specifically examined those questions. Thirty children with severe peanut allergies were exposed to both skin contact and the smell of peanut butter. The study reached the following conclusions:

• A rash may occur where the skin is touched by peanut butter but a dangerous reaction will not result
unless the peanut butter enters the mouth, nose, or eyes.
• The rash will get better when washed with soap and water, and when Benadryl® is given.
• Just smelling peanut butter will not cause an allergic reaction because there is no peanut protein
in an odor.

Quote:

7. What can a school do to make peanut-allergic students safe?

Schools should approach this problem on a case-by-case basis, applying several important principles.
The school must identify each student with food allergies and have a written action plan, signed by the child’s doctor, in place for each student. If prescribed, each allergic student must have an EpiPen® in the school, easily accessible in case of a reaction. Depending on the age of the student, strategies to avoid peanut exposure may include:

• no peanut products in the classroom (not only in terms of eating, but also in terms of classroom
science and art projects)
• peanut-free zones in the cafeteria
• no food sharing
• washing hands before and after eating

So in other words, this guy agrees with me on every point.

-excessive fixation on cleanliness is self-defeating
-there is scant danger from secondary exposure EVEN IN SEVERE CASES
-notice that in item seven he says the student - singular, probably because in item five, the only serious threat is if the kid gets peanut traces on his hands and puts his hands in an orifice. He's not arguing that whole classrooms should have to wash hands on behalf of any one child. If that were his intent he would have so stated explicitly given the precise language used in the document as a whole.

Yuratuhl · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:48 pm

I was under the impression that the point of early elementary school was to expose kids to each other so they'd develop better immune systems. Aside from the learning, anyway.

I've had experience with the hypochondriac parents of childhood friends, and their kids ended up developing conditions they didn't have just because the parents thought they did. That's not particular to this case because this girl is actually allergic to peanuts and all that, but I don't think it's a good idea to dismiss Aestu's comments about hypochondria out of hand just because he's making them. Isolating children or forcing them to take meds they don't need to control diseases or conditions they don't have ends up fucking them over real hard.

dek · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:08 pm

Mns wrote:

Will someone explain to me as to how not eating peanut products for one meal in the day and washing your hands twice a day is some sort of unreasonable repression? I'd be with you guys if people have to be decontaminated during school hours (I mean hell, the only thing that was weird was washing out mouths, but apparently that's already overwith), but I'm pretty sure if you were the parents in this situation you'd do the exact same thing.

Because if the kid is really allergic enough that this is necessary (not possibly a good thing, but *necessary*) then she's fucked, because it isn't going to happen with perfect precision. These are little kids, they don't always do what they're told (or might not realize something has peanuts in it).

And if the kid isn't allergic enough to make this necessary, it's overreacting and stupid.

It is not very intelligent to put your child's life in the hands of perfect cooperation among hundreds of other elementary school students. It's just a bad solution, assuming it's a real concern. There are far too many ways it could go wrong, and there are much easier solutions available.

Necrachilles · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:14 pm

Necrachilles wrote:

c) Snack time was always fun time and it was nice but it's not really all that important. If anything the teachers could take a collect of life $1-2 a week from each kid or their parents (you know kinda like lunch money) if they want their kid to have a snack and then the teachers or a parent or someone who knows what the fuck they're doing should buy safe snacks.

Azelma · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:34 pm

Aestu wrote:

I read what he wrote:

Quote:

One theory for [the increase in allergies] is the Hygiene Hypothesis, which suggests that because children now have fewer infections (due to improved hygiene), their immune systems are more likely to target other things such as items in the environment and diet, resulting in allergies.

Quote:

5. Can someone allergic to eating peanuts also have a reaction by touching or smelling
peanuts?

A study from Mt. Sinai Medical Center in 2003 specifically examined those questions. Thirty children with severe peanut allergies were exposed to both skin contact and the smell of peanut butter. The study reached the following conclusions:

• A rash may occur where the skin is touched by peanut butter but a dangerous reaction will not result
unless the peanut butter enters the mouth, nose, or eyes.
• The rash will get better when washed with soap and water, and when Benadryl® is given.
• Just smelling peanut butter will not cause an allergic reaction because there is no peanut protein
in an odor.

Quote:

7. What can a school do to make peanut-allergic students safe?

Schools should approach this problem on a case-by-case basis, applying several important principles.
The school must identify each student with food allergies and have a written action plan, signed by the child’s doctor, in place for each student. If prescribed, each allergic student must have an EpiPen® in the school, easily accessible in case of a reaction. Depending on the age of the student, strategies to avoid peanut exposure may include:

• no peanut products in the classroom (not only in terms of eating, but also in terms of classroom
science and art projects)
• peanut-free zones in the cafeteria
• no food sharing
• washing hands before and after eating

So in other words, this guy agrees with me on every point.

-excessive fixation on cleanliness is self-defeating
-there is scant danger from secondary exposure EVEN IN SEVERE CASES
-notice that in item seven he says the student - singular, probably because in item five, the only serious threat is if the kid gets peanut traces on his hands and puts his hands in an orifice. He's not arguing that whole classrooms should have to wash hands on behalf of any one child. If that were his intent he would have so stated explicitly given the precise language used in the document as a whole.

That's what I was looking for. I see your point Aestu, and perhaps her parents are indeed over-reacting.

Take a screenshot.

Mns · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:06 pm

Laelia wrote:

Mns wrote:

2) Pecans aren't native to Asia, so how they can be incorporated in "authentic Chinese cuisine" is beyond me (hell, I've never even seen pecans in any sort of legitimate chinese restaurant).

I'm not going to argue about the role of pecans in Chinese cuisine, but the origin of the ingredients isn't really relevant. Lots of ingredients, including tomatoes, bell peppers, potatoes, and sweet potatoes are native to the New World, but they are now essential parts of many Old World cuisines.

This is most definitely true. However, I don't think that pecans are that essential to any dish (besides pecan pie) and he made a specific note to point them out as if he's toting some sort of brand of authenticity.

EDIT:

Quote:

I don't think it's a good idea to dismiss Aestu's comments about hypochondria out of hand just because he's making them.

The whole reasoning of "I met a kid who was allergic to peanuts and it wasn't that bad, so every single case of peanut allergy isn't bad" is pretty stupid.

This whole debate hinges on whether or not the parents are overstating the child's peanut allergy. Once again, the reporter asked that one hot mom as to what would happen if she got her way and the kid was actually as allergic to peanuts as bad as her parents said she was and died, only to have that same milf completely dodge the question after her whole rant on how washing your hands is destructive to the educational structure and eliminates one doodle a day.

If they didn't do anything, the same school would be roasted by the same parents picketing now for failing to protect the child. Its a lose/lose to an over-opinionated and short-sighted public.

Azelma · **Posted:** Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:17 pm

Mns wrote:

If they didn't do anything, the same school would be roasted by the same parents picketing now for failing to protect the child. Its a lose/lose to an over-opinionated and short-sighted public.

Bingo. Hence the title of the thread "This is What's Wrong with America."

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