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I've got a great idea for creating competition! A plan thy the govt will provide at drastically lower prices andnlimite coverage forcing the companies to drop thir prices accordingly! I think I will call it a... Public option! Yay!

owate.

Also, it's not like the poor people aren't paying their taxes. They pay a fair share based on what they can afford. Therefore, they are paying for others. Taxes pay for things that we all use, why not healthcare? Oh, you mean people below the poverty line, you will only pay for them if they pay taxes like more fortunate people? Do you even listen to yourselves? How is this much pretentiousness even allowed any more! Get off your high horses, stop pretending like that's where you belong because you stick out like sore thumbs.

[✔] [item]Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker[/item] (Three)
[✔] [item]Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]32837[/item] & [item]32838[/item]
[✔] [item]Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury[/item]
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[✔] [item]49623[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]71086[/item]

I dont see how competing with the government leads to good business practices. Fedex and UPS both do much better service than the USPS, and the USPS loses money hand over fist from what ive heard. Oh the gov't health care company isn't turning a profit? better suck more taxes out for it. tax payers end up paying for it either way.

it's not much of an option if its really just the same thing, only much less efficient.

Public Option is the trojan horse precursor to a single-payer system. How do you expect the government to fairly compete on a level playing field when the government would be both the team and the referee? Why should tax payers (who may not elect for the public option) be forced to pay for the public option with their tax dollars? Health care is already expensive... why should someone have to pay twice?

It's meaningless to talk about the fairness of the tax system based on only one type of tax people pay, because nobody pays just that one tax or benefits only from the services paid for by that one tax. When you look at the overall US tax system, it's hard to argue that it's unfair to rich people.


The US government is actually quite good at providing efficient health care. The VHA system is considered better than private hospitals and cheaper than private insurance, and is run entirely by the government.

Laelia Komi Anomalocaris

False, false and false.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Well, it's beyond dispute that other countries do this and it works better than what we have, so...

The point isn't that the government "competes". It's that it establishes an option of last resort - a floor instead of a bottomless pit.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Funny, I thought one of the most important tenets of modern liberalism was that "you can't legislate morality."

So now that morality is an impetus for government action, are religious conservatives really such bad people for wanting to get rid of abortion? They're just abiding by their "moral duty," you know?



As much as I'd like to help a brutha out, my parents weren't rich. I'm not rich. I got my own problems, I don't need to bear some other guy's burdens until I've lightened my own pack. It's easy to talk about helping people out when you've got everything covered, it's a different reality when you have to scrape every now and again, and then spend time playing catch-up when you finally do get things lined up the way you'd like.



I'm not going to say we'll have 'death panels,' but there is going to be rationing of care at some level...and that level is probably going to involve old people just because so much of what is spent on health care is spent in the last 20% of a person' life.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

No, it's not, because it's not "the" tax system, it's the federal tax system, which is separate from state/local tax systems. State/local codes vary to a degree that it's impossible to make any sort of large-scale comparison. That's not the case with the federal code,which is uniform across the entirety of the US regardless of locality. Muddying the argument with conflicting, ancillary data is just another sign of the kind of lazy thinking that sees people using "wealth" and "income" interchangeably.


It's equally difficult to argue that it's unfair to poor people, who benefit disproportionately from public services, especially the entitlement spending that currently makes up the bulk of government budgets.




Yet many veterans I know would rather off themselves than take a trip to Martinsburg to go to the VA...and I seem to recall some past events that call into question how well the government is at providing healthcare to those to whom it has obligations.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

It is that way because monied interests find handing out checks less offensive than the government getting things done. It took me a while to realize that.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

this an this.

[✔] [item]Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker[/item] (Three)
[✔] [item]Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]32837[/item] & [item]32838[/item]
[✔] [item]Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury[/item]
[✔] [item]46017[/item]
[✔] [item]49623[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]71086[/item]

The fact that the tax system may be complicated doesn't mean that you can ignore the complicated parts and focus on the one tax program that supports your argument. The overall distribution of taxes in the US is pretty much flat. If you want to maintain that while making one aspect less progressive, other taxes would have to become more progressive. If you want to have a regressive tax system, you should be clear about that with your arguments.


No system is perfect, but the fact remains that overall quality, cost, and satisfaction rankings are better than the private system. And it's not just the US - every other highly developed country has some form of public insurance or subsidies and in some cases a completely public system, all of them are much cheaper, and most of them have better care.

Laelia Komi Anomalocaris

But you already do! That's how insurance companies work. Say you and John Doe have insurance through the same company, you are active and healthy and Mr. Doe is unhealthy, unfit, and accident prone. John trips and breaks his arm, he goes to the hospital for x-rays and they find out he has hypertension and diabetes, too. John's insurance pays for the hospital visit, the x-rays, the physician's fees, subsequent followup visits to the physician's office, medication for the hypertension, and diabetes testing materials-- because hey, he's got great insurance. Meanwhile you pay your premiums every quarter and never get sick, never get hurt and outside of a yearly physical never have to see the inside of a doctor's office. Your premiums pay for John's treatment just as directly as the tax money would pay for John's treatment under a government plan.

And you have to think, too, that companies that offer group insurance plans to their employees pay for their discounted group rates by raising the price on the goods and services they offer. A percent of the cost of every new car sold by american manufacturers goes to help pay insurance costs for their employees. We don't see people angry or upset about that, do we? Ideally what should happen is if the government takes over the role of health insurance companies we would see a reduction in price of the goods and services we purchase-- but I think that's extremely unlikely. Bottom line is, we already pay for other people's insurance and healthcare, it's just not all up in your face about it. Tax is a dirty word in America, and it really shouldn't be.

Akiina - Priest - Royal Militia
Leeloo Minai Lekarariba-Laminai-Tchai Ekbat De Sebat

There's no worse feeling than that millisecond you're sure you are going to die after leaning your chair back a little too far.

thats a good way of explaining it. the difference being, to afford that health care the two examples either work a job that includes a health plan, or they manage their money in their budget and pay for it themselves.

you left out the people on welfare who with this system would just be on MORE welfare, with even less reason to go get a job.

Unsubstantiated blithering. Nobody is denying they exist, but it is such a minority that it is negligible when compared to the bigger group of those who hold a job, raise a family, are responsible, but just need a little help. You make it seem like everyone on welfare is a big, fat lazy fuck and this is simply not the case. But again, this is a gray area that republicans cannot see.

[✔] [item]Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker[/item] (Three)
[✔] [item]Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]32837[/item] & [item]32838[/item]
[✔] [item]Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury[/item]
[✔] [item]46017[/item]
[✔] [item]49623[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]71086[/item]

If you're on welfare you usually qualify for Medicaid which means...you're already covered.

So, the poor who are on Medicaid are covered and those who can afford it are covered, but the growing divide between the two can't afford it. You complain about paying twice...but you're already paying twice.

If everyone was on one plan the costs would go down. There would be no more uninsured that the insured have to eat 100% of the cost, one big buyer could negotiate lower prices (like walmart has done for years), and the overall cost would be spread out amongst a larger number of people.

Dvergar /
Quisling