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 Post subject: Practical Applications for the Higgs Boson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:19 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I am not as impressed as most about the "discovery" of the Higgs boson.

Mostly because I know enough about physics to know that I don't understand it, and I know enough about the mainstream media to know they are a piss poor filter as to what is or is not true or relevant in the scientific community.

And even those in the know say that astrophysics has slid into the realm of speculation and irrelevance, relying on inference and generous assumption and questionable measurements of celestial bodies millions of light-years away. One of the most facile yet overlooked assumptions made by modern astrophysics is that the laws of physics are constant everywhere in the universe, which is a pretty damn generous assumption considering how little we actually know about any of it outside our own atmosphere.

Doing a bit of reading (on Wikipedia lol), what is really striking is that most of the core theory about astrophysics was done back in the 1920s. Astrophysics, like nuclear science, particle/field studies, biofuels, cybernetics, and advanced aviation, seems to be one of those tech trees that simply hasn't gotten any serious attention over the last 60 years, while major strides have been made in fields such as electronics, computing, materials engineering and power supplies. I think what this research really represents (or is an effort by some frustrated scientists to prove) is that there are enormous gains to be had by giving physics research as much attention as bio-engineering.

One very interesting concept, which, perhaps by design, is getting almost no attention, is the possibility of using this research to eventually create artificial miniature black holes and using them to drive turbines (yes, like the Romulans on Star Trek). This would mean that people could carry around snowglobe-sized generators that consume no fuel and produce no radiation or hazardous emissions yet generate more electricity than the Hoover Dam.

It is theoretically possible, but such incredible technology is, by all estimates, very far off. Probably centuries if ever. And seriously pursuing such research would require major advances in superconductors and power supplies (chicken and egg). Such research might also require space colonization, to provide easy access to a vacuum and near-zero gravity to facilitate such work, or to situate the research lab on the far side of an asteroid further from the sun than Earth to avoid contamination from solar radiation.

The upside is, investment in colonization of the asteroid belt to conduct advanced physics research, would provide an IP for a way better FPS than Call of Duty.

Then again, consider how far technology has come since 1912. When wars were still fought with sabers and on horseback, and people still thought that phonographs were a marvel. Under the right conditions, people can make remarkable progress in a very short time. I believe the key is good primary scientific education (to spawn as many potential geniuses and necessary support personnel as possible), accessible institutional advancement in those fields, and providing talented scientists with tenure so they can spend their lives making steady progress, uninterrupted by mundane concerns. This way of life is perceived as arrogant but it has been responsible for most of the progress made in the last hundred years: most of the big work from 1950-1990 was done by the same small handful of very intelligent tenured scientists. Point being, it's not impossible for us to see incredible progress made within our own lifetimes.

I have come to believe that consumerism, the emphasis on extreme short-term gains by the corps (and a corollary unwillingness to pay taxes for long-term investment) as well as their stifling of both liberal and technical education (seeing the former as a political threat and the latter as an economic threat), as well as the militarization of most advanced research, are the three main reasons these fascinating areas of development have received no attention. It is also worth noting that high taxes and public investment in physics research and related support industries (such as construction and refining) would help bring the economy closer to full employment, ensuring social stability.

I think the best parallel is how the end of feudalism led to the first major advances in science in over a thousand years. Or how the ancient Greeks invented the laser and steam engine but never bothered to capitalize on their discoveries. So I think that any such developments will have to wait for our civilization to finally peter out, the upcoming dark age to end, and for some future civilization to pick up where we left off. Or maybe we can be wildly optimistic: perhaps civilization as we know it can overcome its problems, develop new value systems, and begin moving forward again.

idk. anyone have any opinions?

This is a rant I know, but the implications are pretty big. What I wrote is abstract and far reaching, but it is, as I say, a statement of fact. These really are the stakes for our generation. Worth thinking about.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Applications for the Higgs Boson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:24 am  
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i believe i read in an article that the technological implications won't be seen for a few decades. they do believe though, eventually through the manipulation of the particle they will able to assign mass to matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Practical Applications for the Higgs Boson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:34 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I see why your skeptical...truth is, the media doesn't really understand it either, which is why all the info is generally lacking.

That said, I believe it IS a huge discovery. Pretty much every person who is actually in the scientific community I know of sees it as a huge deal. The kicker is that I have a buddy who goes to CERN multiple times a year and works with their particle accelerators (kid is scary smart). Anyway, he assured me that yes...it's a big deal.

He then tried to explain it to me in more detail, but we were drinking and I had a hard time following him.

Seriously I wish we had a real good physics nerd on here who could explain this whole thing to me in layman's terms.


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 Post subject: Re: Practical Applications for the Higgs Boson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:59 am  
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Quote:
Seriously I wish we had a real good physics nerd on here who could explain this whole thing to me in layman's terms.

We had one awhile back. His forum avatar would always change to a different screen capture of the LHC's detection collisions. Haven't seen him in a long, long time though.
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 Post subject: Re: Practical Applications for the Higgs Boson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:54 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Why do they call this the god particle again?


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 Post subject: Re: Practical Applications for the Higgs Boson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:49 pm  
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Quote:
Quote:
<br />Seriously I wish we had a real good physics nerd on here who could explain this whole thing to me in layman's terms.
<br />We had one awhile back. His forum avatar would always change to a different screen capture of the LHC's detection collisions. Haven't seen him in a long, long time though.


Joklem ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Applications for the Higgs Boson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:54 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Quote:
Seriously I wish we had a real good physics nerd on here who could explain this whole thing to me in layman's terms.

We had one awhile back.


Joklem wasn't a good physics nerd, he was just a nerd.

He would make metaphysical rants and link cute jpgs, but he very provably had no real understanding of anything, least of all physics. He made a bunch of facile kool-aid statements about Fukushima then had nothing but snark when a few months' time proved him wrong on all counts.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Practical Applications for the Higgs Boson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:20 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Yeah he kind of "took his ball and went home" in regards to FUBU. I thought he did have more than just random nerd knowledge about Physics. Wasn't he studying it or working in the field in some capacity?


In any case - I have read like 4 different articles, and they all do a shit job of explaining this...and exactly why it could be considered a "God Particle"


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Applications for the Higgs Boson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:28 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
Why do they call this the god particle again?


because it determines the mass of a particle.


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 Post subject: Re: Practical Applications for the Higgs Boson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:37 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I don't see what that has to do with god other than there being a scientist with an axe to grind. Which means it could just as easily be called the john q particle.


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 Post subject: Re: Practical Applications for the Higgs Boson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:38 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Usdk wrote:
I don't see what that has to do with god other than there being a scientist with an axe to grind. Which means it could just as easily be called the john q particle.


The idea is that this experiment and the discovery of this particle "proves" the Big Bang theory. In reality, too much empirical evidence is lacking, and it's a stupid argument anyway.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Applications for the Higgs Boson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:39 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Fair enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Practical Applications for the Higgs Boson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:05 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu wrote:
Usdk wrote:
I don't see what that has to do with god other than there being a scientist with an axe to grind. Which means it could just as easily be called the john q particle.


The idea is that this experiment and the discovery of this particle "proves" the Big Bang theory. In reality, too much empirical evidence is lacking, and it's a stupid argument anyway.


I guess my issue is...they had to do something to "change" the state of the particle, right?

Like I get it...the visible/"real" world is only 4% of all particles or whatever and the other 96% is the dark matter right? This discovery claims to explain that "yes, there's something that happens for something to go from being in that 96% to being in that 4%" right?

Logically...doesn't something have to happen for that change of state to take place? It doesn't just happen arbitrarily, right?


Apologies if I completely am understanding it wrong. I really need a physics nerd.


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 Post subject: Re: Practical Applications for the Higgs Boson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:10 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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sounds like one of the basic laws of matter. it can't be destroyed or created, you can only change its state.


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 Post subject: Re: Practical Applications for the Higgs Boson
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:28 pm  
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actually, it's referred to as the god particle because it is the one unifying particle that determines the oscillation and mass of every quark, which in turn determines atomic structures, which in turn determines what element it is, which in turn makes up the entire universe. this particle is the creator- errr... arbiter, if you will.

also, ethan, you're missing the key implication. with the understanding and technology, research of this particle will eventually yield the ability to create elements that serve specific purposes. for instance, what use could you find for an element that changes its mass depending on the polarity of electricity run through it?


Verily, I have often laughed at weaklings who thought themselves proud because they had no claws.
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