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 Post subject: Re: Internet Drama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:35 am  
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Deliciously Trashy
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Kayllaira wrote:
My feminist friend shaved her head and changed her name to Syd to be more gender neutral. She said it was because "people assume things (femininity) when they hear my name". She also prefers people using they/them when talking about her.

I'm completely serious.

I just don't get it. I mean I can understand if you truly identify as one or the other gender. But I've known this girl over half my life and not once has anything remotely like this come up, not even anything close.


I really was going to stay out of this, but I want to address this and your last post. You realize there are different branches of feminist theory and she's really not representitve of the movement of whole/the mainstream? I'm so tired of people dismissing feminism because of a few extreme examples. Seriously, it's as bad as dismissing the Civil Rights movement because of Militant Black Groups, or Islam because of institutions like the Taliban. (ps: this is probably closer to her ideology)

Quote:
I really don't get feminism. I mean I understand what it is, but I don't get it. I guess because what would truly make me happy would be to be a housewife and mother for the rest of my life. That's not really cohesive with feminist ideals, from what I've gathered.


Most feminists (myself included) would be 100% okay with this and would fully support this. Feminism is about giving women the *choice* to pursue a career with equal viability that a man might have, or raise children, or WHATEVER.

And seriously, for people who still have their heads up their ass about feminism [and women]:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ramit-set ... 59772.html (this one really applies to some of you)
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/hdh9/e-reserves/ ... _PDF-1.pdf (advantages should also be "")

YES THERE ARE ISSUES WITH THE SYSTEM, AND YES MEN GET THE SHORT END OF THE STICK IN SOME INSTANCES, BUT SERIOUSLY. We haven't even been able to vote for 100 years. Jesus christ.


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 Post subject: Re: Internet Drama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:39 am  
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inb4 Aestu "refutes" my entire post by calling me brainwashed/stupid/etc


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 Post subject: Re: Internet Drama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:53 am  
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Zaryi is exactly right in that there is a lot of validity to feminism and that there are extremes which are cited by detractors as representative of the whole.

Every movement / belief system in society has that.

Currently I'm dating a feminist and hang out with a bunch of her feminist friends. For the most part, they are incredibly intelligent about it. They realize that feminism shouldn't be about man hating. and that what it seeks is true gender equality. They aren't hypocrites who want men to buy them drinks, but then proceed to call them chauvinistic pigs.

Truthfully...that's what I want. I want GENDER EQUALITY. Because, while the genders have physical differences, I believe they are equal, or should be, in every sense of the word. The problem is that society pushes so many labels and expectations on each gender that it gets shit twisted.


Because feminism is a "minority" movement...it gets talked about more. It's why racism against black people is talked about, while racism against white people is dismissed. By its very nature, the person who is in the minority is the "oppressed" and so has a "louder" argument. That doesn't mean though that things don't happen to the "power group"...in this case, men.


Think about it guys...what happens to men in this country? What are we told we should be like? Have you ever been called a fag because you didn't love sports? Ever get made fun of for having feelings? "Boy's don't cry...."

Think about what women go through. They are told they should be sexy. They are told they should be a lady in the street but a freak in the bed (virgin/whore complex)...they still don't make as much as the average man.

Don't you see how it's two sides of the same coin? Both sides are angry at the other...and point out all the advantages they have (women can go to a bar and get free drinks and fuck any guy they want...while I am stuck with the tab, get fucked over in divorce, and will have to masturbate my sorrows away if I strike out...oh and I have to get drafted). Really they both want the same thing EQUALITY.



HOWEVER


Just like "mens" magazines/sites that are harmful to our gender (Maxim, AskMen,etc.) by propelling stereotypes and traditional unbalanced gender roles ("here's how to take a girl out and manipulate her into fucking you"), women have magazines/sites that do the same fucking thing (Cosmo, Jezebel, etc.)

The problem is...we can't insult these magazines because women are still they "oppressed group" -- Zaryi seems to have trouble seeing this at times...only focusing on her valid oppressed status. Fact is though, we need to call spades, spades. Jezebel does more harm to feminism than good...just like AskMen is fucking awful for masculism.



You know why no one ever complains that Black Entertainment Television is allowed to exist? Because black people are they oppressed group. If I created White Entertainment Television, it would be labled racist soooooo fast.



Anyway, my point is, we're letting our anger at stupid fucktard feminists cloud the judgement of true, logical feminism.

It's all white noise and it's why shit is so hard to get done.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: Internet Drama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:06 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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This is going to turn into woman bashing at some point in this thread I'm sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Internet Drama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:08 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
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Kayllaira wrote:
Trying to "gain equality" really comes off as trying to be seen as the superior sex, imo.


Kay once again wins a thread.
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 Post subject: Re: Internet Drama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:14 pm  
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Azelma wrote:
Just like "mens" magazines/sites that are harmful to our gender (Maxim, AskMen,etc.) by propelling stereotypes and traditional unbalanced gender roles ("here's how to take a girl out and manipulate her into fucking you"), women have magazines/sites that do the same fucking thing (Cosmo, Jezebel, etc.)

The problem is...we can't insult these magazines because women are still they "oppressed group" -- Zaryi seems to have trouble seeing this at times...only focusing on her valid oppressed status. Fact is though, we need to call spades, spades. Jezebel does more harm to feminism than good...just like AskMen is fucking awful for masculism.

This is a good post. I don't anyone has a problem with gender equality, but I know I sure as shit have a problem with women demanding "equality" when they want to be fed free drinks and then get hysterical if a man buying the drinks hits on her.

Quote:
We haven't even been able to vote for 100 years. Jesus christ.

This is like pulling the holocaust card whenever someone says something bad about judiasm but way, way worse.


RETIRED.
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 Post subject: Re: Internet Drama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:32 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I agree with everything in mayo's post.


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 Post subject: Re: Internet Drama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:14 pm  
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I don't think it's possible to legislate equality. It's a fool's errand. The only way forward is solidarity among all of humanity that acknowledges that militant feminist and militant racial groups are one and the same, but that falls short of branding all feminists as militant and all race activists as militant.

What it comes down to is that everyone deserves to have the same rights as everyone else. Rights are granted by way of legislation. Concepts such as "white privilege" are very real and must be acknowledged as legitimate social factors that do exist, for better or worse.

The same applies to men. The government can only do so much in terms of bridging the equality gap. The rest of it must come from society.

Personally, I think it's stupid that a woman should be required by way of federal laws to make the same amount of money that I do (or even close) for doing the same job. The reality is, they don't do the same job. At present, our truck unload team consists of myself- a 26 year old white man, a 20 something black lesbian female and a low 60s white male. Part of our job duty is to unload appliances from the truck, which are sometimes triple stacked and weighing upwards of 200 lbs each. You think the female or elderly man are lifting that shit? Fuck no. They are not. Neither of them should be making close to what I make for doing 50% of the work that I do.

But I digress. If someone of any gender, race, age or sexual orientation were able to do my job to the same extent, they'd be perfectly deserving of similar pay.

As a society, we need to get away from militant feminism just as much as we need to get away from condemning feminists with legitimate concerns and goals. As a society, we need to acknowledge that not everyone is equal to everyone else. Some people are lazy douches, some people are physically incapable of performing to the same extent, whether that limitation exists due to age or gender or any other factor.

There is a difference between privileges and rights. Privileges must be earned. If you want the privilege of earning the same rate of pay as me, you will earn it by doing the same amount of fucking work as me. If you want the right to vote and the right to drive, the right to do whatever other people can do, you deserve those rights. I have the ability and right to vote, so should you. I have the ability to lift 200 lbs for whatever-the-fuck-I-make-per-hour, you need to either step up and do the same goddamn thing for the same pay or find a new job.

It's that simple.


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 Post subject: Re: Internet Drama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:30 pm  
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Zaryi wrote:
I really was going to stay out of this, but I want to address this and your last post. You realize there are different branches of feminist theory and she's really not representitve of the movement of whole/the mainstream? I'm so tired of people dismissing feminism because of a few extreme examples.


The fact that there are "different branches of feminist theory" proves one salient truth about the whole mess: it's an ideology of whims...in just the same way libertarianism is a philosophy of ignorance.

Feminists can't agree on what they want because their only common ground is that they want stuff.

By way of comparison to other ideological movements: are there different branches of communist theory, or democratic theory, or religious theory? Yes, but they have something in common that feminists don't have in common, which is a set of basic beliefs and principles. So, what feminists have, instead of that, is "cynical idealism". Whims.

Zaryi wrote:
Seriously, it's as bad as dismissing the Civil Rights movement because of Militant Black Groups, or Islam because of institutions like the Taliban. (ps: this is probably closer to her ideology)


Your analogy is correct, but interpreted correctly, it proves feminism a sham.

All the movements you named have their bad apples. But all those movements you named, also achieved their legitimate objectives a long time ago.

Every progressive movement has its hardcore. When the movement achieves its objectives, and becomes institutionalized, that hardcore meanders further into bureacratism and radicalism in an effort to stay relevant. The Black Panthers, or the Iranian religious police, or the Chinese Communist Party, or the various hijinks Christians have put on over the years, are excellent examples of this.

Radicalism can make itself appealing to mainstream society only through demagoguery. Appeal to the lowest common denominator: you can have it all, for free, and all your problems are someone else's fault. That's what feminism has done, just like every other radical movement that has succeeded in going mainstream: Nazism, the Christian Coalition, Ron Paul, libertarianism, etc.

Feminism does evil in this world because the movement has outlived its usefulness and sunk into radicalism and demagoguery in an effort to stay relevant. Since the movement is obsolete and exists only for cynical reasons, there are no good feminists left.

Zaryi wrote:
Quote:
I really don't get feminism. I mean I understand what it is, but I don't get it. I guess because what would truly make me happy would be to be a housewife and mother for the rest of my life. That's not really cohesive with feminist ideals, from what I've gathered.


Most feminists (myself included) would be 100% okay with this and would fully support this. Feminism is about giving women the *choice* to pursue a career with equal viability that a man might have, or raise children, or WHATEVER.


This sounds reasonable, but it isn't.

1. Women can't pursue a career with equal viability because they get pregnant and have periods. And they aren't as proficient with most work-related skills as men...women are physically weaker, they are significantly inferior in math and critical thinking, they are not as tough or aggressive as men, they tend to react emotionally where men react logically.

This is why I say feminism is a product of the free market. The free market is a sham because of human nature, people aren't going to just accept life's inherent unfairness sitting down, they're going to organize to fight it...previously, that 'organization' meant the social mores of men working and women keeping house, but when the country bought into this "anything goes" garbage, obviously, human nature reared its head, women tried to even the odds and now there's feminism.

Now maybe you want to say you want equality of opportunity. Feminists don't want equality of opportunity, they want equality of outcomes. You can't talk about "some" feminists etc because what defines the movement is not what people say but what it does. Show me the feminist who supports Selective Service for women, or who opposes alimony. That feminist just doesn't exist.

2. The choices of individual women don't take place in a vacuum. A two-paycheck household has an absolute advantage over a one-paycheck household. This is a major cause of inflation in American society. Now even if some other woman would prefer to stay home, she can't, because higher prices, driven by the higher earning power of two-paycheck households, make that option non-viable.

And you can't pretend that any significant number of women can be both competitive in the workplace and fully on-the-ball with children and home. Time is limited, and something's got to give. Does the child have a "choice" in this equation? Who pays the social costs incurred by women who decide to work at the cost of their child's care?

3. The equality you speak of is fundamentally unequal because men don't have those same options no matter how much feminists like to pretend they could or should. A woman can always choose to be a housewife, a man can't make that same choice period, the reason being the differences in sexual and human economy driven by the biological differences between the sexes. Woman decides to work, puts man out of job - you can't tell that man to now become a housemaker, a choice the woman had all along...

This is why feminism is a radical ideology, in the same sense libertarianism and communism are - it's a willful denial of how the world actually works, substituting ideology for common sense. It's no coincidence that "feminist scholars" produce mountains of self-citing "research" to try to blabber their way around the realities of life that are obvious to everyone else.

Zaryi wrote:
YES THERE ARE ISSUES WITH THE SYSTEM, AND YES MEN GET THE SHORT END OF THE STICK IN SOME INSTANCES, BUT SERIOUSLY. We haven't even been able to vote for 100 years. Jesus christ.


Mayo already hard-countered this point, and really, that you even made it (in caps!) is enough to show feminism for the sham it is.

Zaryi wrote:
inb4 Aestu "refutes" my entire post by calling me brainwashed/stupid/etc


And I didn't. What now? What have you to say for yourself? You were wrong, sup?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: Internet Drama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:59 pm  
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Battletard wrote:
I don't think it's possible to legislate equality. It's a fool's errand. The only way forward is solidarity among all of humanity that acknowledges that militant feminist and militant racial groups are one and the same, but that falls short of branding all feminists as militant and all race activists as militant.

What it comes down to is that everyone deserves to have the same rights as everyone else. Rights are granted by way of legislation...


Actually, this isn't true. As I said in the other thread, the Founding Fathers got it wrong. The political system doesn't give people rights, social values and economic means do. The way that equality of opportunity is established in society is by giving everyone the same ropes and nets.

The key to preventing social disorder - ghetto riots, OWS, feminism, whatever - is to make sure the ropes hang low enough and the net is high enough off the floor.

Battletard wrote:
But I digress. If someone of any gender, race, age or sexual orientation were able to do my job to the same extent, they'd be perfectly deserving of similar pay.


Actually, I don't agree with this.

The idea that all those parameters you named are equivalent has filtered through society as a result of the free market: conceiving the individual person as an economic unit. From that we come to trying to ignore how all the parameters you mentioned impact that neat cookie-cutter vision of human economy.

Gender is an easy one to debunk. Women and men aren't equal, and there are definite reasons why women probably shouldn't be allowed to work - because of the needs of children and the impact on male employment. Benito Mussolini said it best: "Women and machines are the main causes of unemployment." But the free market forces them to look out for themselves, treats them as an economic unit, and therefore the inferior economic units - ugly and talentless women, or women who just want more of the pie - are now angry.

Race. Race isn't equal to gender. Most obviously because the genders exist through mutual synergy - the sex drive, sexual dimorphism, all that. Marriage is culturally universal for this reason, it's an adaptation driven by the human condition. Race, on the other hand, is simply an anomaly, and the responses it evokes in humans are anomalous - contrary to intended functioning.

Xenophobia, intense, irrational fear and hatred of other races, is logical, and it serves a definite evolutionary purpose: the perpetuation of our respective genomes. In fact, I believe the real reason people who aren't black hate blacks with such unreasoned intensity - in all places and times - is chemical: I think that the smell of black people, that whites find much more offensive than it is, is in reality a chemical messenger that borks the sex/aggression impulses of other races. And I believe this basic impulse evolved for valid reasons.

Now, rape is also logical, and serves a definite evolutionary purpose. But because we are no longer cavemen, and have decided to become civilized, which is a good thing, we can't very well have people going around raping each other or killing people of races different from their own.

The approach to this dilemma - the dilemma of civilized life - has been basically to deny human nature. Hence rape shield laws and EEOC crap and blacks and women still trailing behind in performance. This approach will never work because of human nature.

I believe the correct approach is to work with human nature, and build civilization around it. In that sense I am the ultimate optimist.

People like Zaryi think that the solution is to shuffle the genetic deck. People like Eturnalshift think the solution is to cut it. I say do both: shuffle the deck, then cut it. This is a logical approach, because the best society has the best people; therefore, a "shuffle and cut" society would be the best.



As for women, I say this...what does a woman, as a woman, bring to your job? Conversely, isn't it bigoted to claim that any role women might have in society is inherently of less value? Therefore, I believe, the goal should not be to allow women in the workplace, but to honor their role in whatever role it is they fulfill.

The core of the feminist movement has always been lesbians, ugly women and old maids, because, as I said, they fail at being women. This is where "rope and net" comes in. Rather than make them miserable for being unmarriable, offer them a social niche that doesn't threaten men or married women - cheap housing and vocational training. After all, these people only started causing a fracas when all of a sudden the free market meant they had to go head-to-head against everyone else.

If lesbians and ugly women are prevented from becoming angry and desperate, they won't try to rally otherwise well-adjusted hetero women to their cause.

This is also why sexual orientation is utterly dissimilar from race and gender as a parameter for people, further debunking the lie that is that cliched list and the way of thinking it represents. Sexual orientation is neither arbitrary nor economically irrelevant, and we only pretend it is because of the free market.

So, React (Max?), what do you think of what I said?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Internet Drama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:51 pm  
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Azelma wrote:
Currently I'm dating a feminist and hang out with a bunch of her feminist friends. For the most part, they are incredibly intelligent about it. They realize that feminism shouldn't be about man hating. and that what it seeks is true gender equality. They aren't hypocrites who want men to buy them drinks, but then proceed to call them chauvinistic pigs.


This is always a lie. And the success of this lie, is the success of feminism - winning male approval of a dishonest representation of their agenda.

If they want equality, then why are they feminists? If a black or Jewish person wants racial equality, do they have to be a Rastafarian or ADL member? And since in all cases those legitimate goals have been met, what does that say about those who are?

Azelma wrote:
Because feminism is a "minority" movement...it gets talked about more.
You know why no one ever complains that Black Entertainment Television is allowed to exist? Because black people are they oppressed group.


He who has the power is he whom you cannot criticize in safety.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Internet Drama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:28 pm  
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I'm surprised with how much of this finds aestu and myself in agreement, actually.


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 Post subject: Re: Internet Drama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:40 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
I'm surprised with how much of this finds aestu and myself in agreement, actually.


Quote:
...He was a free spirit, the sort of man who would agree with you completely on one topic and disagree utterly on another. He never followed the party line. He did what he thought was right. The Mossad distrusted and hated him. People like that are dangerous because they are unpredictable...

-Victor Ostrovsky, "By Way of Deception"


Almost everyone agrees with me completely on some topic.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Internet Drama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:18 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu wrote:
Show me the feminist who supports Selective Service for women, or who opposes alimony. That feminist just doesn't exist.


This, this, holy fuck THIS.


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 Post subject: Re: Internet Drama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:31 pm  
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Deliciously Trashy
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Hi.


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