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i've started to embrace shit rolls lately

like if i start a game of master of magic or FTL or something, and get some bad luck, i just roll with it (HAHA, ROLL, LOL)

it's like playing on hard mode you know

i'm thinking my next witcher 2 playthrough will be on the permadeath difficulty next time, fuck that pusshy dark mode shit

You know what really turned me off WoW raiding? Pre-potting. Most fucking retarded thing ever.

YOU NEED TO DO A COUNTDOWN SO I CAN PREPOT
NONO YOU DID IT TOO FAST I MESSED UP MY PREPOT
WE NEED TO PREPOT SO WE CAN MAX OUR DPS SO WE DONT WIPE
U DONT PREPOT??? THE BEST PLAYERS PREPOT SAYS SO ON EJ

Then they froth at the mouth when you walk them through the numbers and show just how incredibly marginal prepotting is. A lot of super minmaxxers in most games are like that. They pretend to min-max/theorycraft/whatever but totally suck at it and do things that don't stand up to a moment's thought or fourth-grade math because they perceive their bad approaches as elite, because it's what everyone else (equally mediocre players) do.

Like you said, they seem to be the majority of every game now. It's really tiresome.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

The mandatory daily's grinding alone bored me out pretty good.

My biggest gripe was always the retarded reputation grinds. That was honestly the worst type of gating, ever.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

yeah the dailies and not being able to champion really sucked.

Pre potting does make a difference... In progression raiding and in Epeen growing.

Hitting enrage timers is a HUGE issue on some fights(or with some raid comps) and that extra 30% of a main stat(for 20sec) can give you that edge to push through, generally you pre pot pop all CD's(including hero/lust) and then you can pot again with all your personals and 5min raid CDs before the end of the fight. Hell I have pre potted on a lot of fights as resto because the enrage timers were so bad. H-Gara'jal was particularly bad this tier, we probably hit the enrage 20 times or so before our first kill and in the end we had all 3 healers DPSing as much as we could to beat the enrage by I think 2 seconds. You can also run into soft enrages with healer mana : {

Other thing... You can make the same argument about using potions at all. Or eating buff food. Or enchanting gear. Some people just want to do there absolute best.

Last points. The only people who don't like pre potting are folks who are to cheap(to buy) or lazy(to farm) them and tanks that are afraid to talk or can't count to 5(you can get DMB to count in chat for you btw). Everyone likes to see big numbers. There is also almost no such thing as counting to fast, you can be an asshole and deliberately chaingun count but generally pace/rytham is the important thing and having all your counts be consistent to each other helps.

But I suppose if all your doing is months late normal modes, pugs and LFR's then pre potting probably is not for you.

Çhubathingy - Shaman - Royal Militia
Hoenhiem - Paladin - Royal Militia
Contact: Bnet= nurindun#1138 / twitter / twitch

There are *some* progression encounters where prepotting - or other consumables - are necessary, but in the overwhelming majority of progression raiding, wipes are due to:

1) failure at mechanics
2) damage, timers and/or mechanics specific to later phases of the encounter

A bit more DPS, in the first 15 seconds of the encounter, will not prevent those wipes.

I don't like counting down because it's an obnoxious inconvenience, and as Grimm said, taking the game too seriously makes it unfun. I like challenging encounters. I don't like artificial challenge. Like being hectored on my "pace/rhythm" or "being consistent" in the fine art of counting down from five. That is not why I play video games.

No one likes grinding. No one likes pissing away gold and mats. Everyone likes feeling satisfied when they achieve a goal based on input of time and effort. Pissing away gold and mats on pots (or food and flasks) when they are unnecessary does not make the game more fun. It makes it less fun. If consumables - including prepotting - are necessary and appropriate then certainly there is no excuse for not using them, or for doing a prepot. And certainly making the effort to do so makes the game more fun. Usually, however, that isn't the case.

Any good raider likes to do their best. There is a very real, very definite difference, however, between doing one's best, and trying to make the argument one is doing one's best. I do not like the term "tryhard" that Grimmgor used (and it's a favorite insult of kids, losers and the viciously insecure) but it would apply in this context. Someone who uses consumables to "do their best" when their "best" does not get better results, in the relevant sense of contributing to completing the encounter, is a legit tryhard. If one is doing 52k dps instead of 50k dps on an encounter that requires 500k rdps (or whatever) that is not doing one's "best", it is being a tryhard.

I and many other people don't like playing with tryhards because it's unfun. I don't like being hectored that I am doing something that doesn't matter not as well as I could, or being needled that I am not doing something that simply doesn't need to be done at all, by anyone. It makes the game into a job and reduces the social/team element to petty bickering and mindless nerding.

And fwiw I don't usually use DBM anymore because it is obsolete. For some encounters, yes, it is useful. But since Cata, Blizzard has deliberately designed encounters to provide players with all the info they need. You needed DBM on HLK25 or Anub because of the hidden timers, or because players would be randomly targetted sans emote.

That isn't the case today, the base UI tells the player almost everything. DBM is not part of the base UI, it is a mod...and it can make mistakes. The timer can be off. It can provide the wrong target if its scripting bugs. And at all times it adds to UI bloat and distracts the player. To argue that one is so awesome that those factors don't matter is to turn min-maxxing on its head.

As with prepotting and consumables, yes, some encounters require DBM for one reason or another; it should be turned on as appropriate. Most of the time, though, DBM is an unnecessary distraction and nerdy ritualism.

But if it works for you, it's your toon/raid/whatever, man.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

i honestly can't even think of the last boss that pre potting got us a kill. it was almost always that people remembered how to play again for 5 minutes. maybe on something like muru, who was an overturned and generally terrible boss fight, but almost anything else from when i played, no, other then thaddius. i could maybe list brutallus, but that was more so everybody respeccing to leatherworking, not pre potting.

maybe it's different now, i don't know, i haven't played since cata started. number crunching bosses were almost always the worst bosses in that game though. watching guilds fail to heroic lich king before the buff reached a certain point because they couldn't do enough damage to valkyries is an embarrassment to boss design.

Killing boss's faster is ALWAYS more adventitious. The faster they die the fewer chances people will have to fuck things up and there are tons of fights where pushing more DPS in an earlier phase makes subsequent phases MUCH simpler.



Counting to 5 isn't difficult. It is not a "fine art". You are being lazy.



100 pots gets me through most weeks with plenty to spare. They cost 2g each. Flasks are 10g + a lotus and you can get 3lotus a day from a farm(5mins of your time). We provide feasts and repairs. If you can't come up with 320g and 20mins of "farming" in a week then you don't have time to raid competitively.



I can see where people can get upset with some things, but in a guild situation you should know what you are getting into. If it says on an app that you are expected to show up with flasks/pots with min/max'd gear then you're the asshole if you don't. As far as "tryhards" being "unfun"(not a word), its a matter of opinion. To high end guilds raiding is a competition. Within the raid we are having friendly competition on dmg/healing/"who fucked up" meters. On a personal level I'm competing against myself(from previous weeks) and every other shaman in the world. On a team level we are competing against every other guild on our faction/server/continent/the whole world. And even if you don't come in first place you can be happy with where you are because you gave it everything you could(there is always going to be a bigger fish who has better reaction time/more luck that day or just plain more days). Striving for perfection is fun to me.

If you feel people are insulting you over tiny matters like counting you have a shit GM/raid leader, which does happen a lot(If you are in a guild where the guys in charge really like being in charge look out) or you are raiding with assholes(again shitty leadership leads to raiders with shitty attitudes).

I will also say that for my guild in particular good natured "ribbing" happens. There is a line and its different with every person, it shouldn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out some one is pissed about something you say. Adults figure it out fix it and move on.



Addons in general are obsolete. I use Recount and Deathnote to help perfect strats in raid, I have BigWigs to give me an idea of where we are in a fight and to yell at me when I'm fire dancing and a have a few quality of life addons like Bartender/Xperl(for target/focus frames). I used to use a lot of addons for a lot of different things but when my computer broke in WotLK and I was forced to do most of ICC hardmode(4+months) on my old XP machine with 1 addon (move unit frames) and all the graphics turned to min in order to play I really noticed how little I needed them.



It does work for me, ty.
A lot of things do have a "best/max" answer. The answer isn't always the same for every person in the case of addons/UI but with pots, food, flasks, rotations and keybinding(vs clicking) it is simple math.

Çhubathingy - Shaman - Royal Militia
Hoenhiem - Paladin - Royal Militia
Contact: Bnet= nurindun#1138 / twitter / twitch

I think a lot of it comes down to how fast you progress, how many weeks worth of gear you have available. I think it also has a greater impact on 10mans because its harder to stack a raid full of cleave.

I know a lot of boss's the last 2 expansions have been rough for enrage or dmg needed in a phase(like everything Heroic in BWD/BoT/Throne). For this Xpac I can remember hitting enrages with everyone alive on a bunch of Heroic fights like Gara'jal(hard enrage), Elegon(soft enrage), Blade Lord(hard) and Garalon(hard) as well as some fights where we don't have the cleave/over all dmg to keep up. Some of them we are able to min/max on the spot and some we just need to wait for more gear. There is a reason guilds like Fierce who crafted every BOE epic, bought every piece of gear off the BMAH(heroic stuff from instances that weren't even out yet) and did every little thing possible get the server 1st and top100 in the world kills.(and no I don't blame them for what they can do that I can't to a get kill)

Blizz has basically figured out that they can't come up with enough new mechanics to stump guilds(possibly also due to the massive proliferation of raid strats these days, even before boss's are on live servers) so they have to gate everything.

Çhubathingy - Shaman - Royal Militia
Hoenhiem - Paladin - Royal Militia
Contact: Bnet= nurindun#1138 / twitter / twitch

Addons are still necessary for the simple reason that the Blizzard UI sucks ass.

I have no idea why it took whatever morons they have working on it five years to make the unit frames movable, but even as they are, the UI has poor visibility and a ton of wasted space. Their new "compact" raidframes are almost unreadable and don't display raid group. Omen is still necessary, contrary to what Mr Street says, not that one is worried about losing threat but that it is another indicator of what's going on and what the mob is doing.

I personally believe that the most important raid mod is Prat, and I think it betrays the sad state of raid culture that no guild requires it. I don't understand how a mod that massively facilitates raid communication is not considered a must.



How did pre-potting really help on Chim or Nef or Cho or Maloriak or Elemental Council? The progression elements of those encounters (to name only a few) were in the final phase, which occur at fixed percentages, wiping the benefit of additional DPS earlier in the encounter. How is pre-potting going to help you on Atramedes or Three Winds - mechanical/coordination encounters? It couldn't even really help on Tron, because of the delay between combat starting and the units becoming active and the fact that damage-boosting buffs only become available midway through the encounter. Useful on Al'akir? Definitely. That's one encounter where it's a must.



Yeah, I am. So what? What difference does it make? The boss will die (or not). The raid will go on all the same.



It's not an issue of time, it is an issue of fun. It is most certainly not an issue of "competitiveness" because unnecessary use of consumables does not make a guild more competitive.



Apps say a lot of things. The funny thing about apps and interviews, online as in real life, is they have the strongest "superiority bias". To quote a phrase, basically everyone thinks they are awesome at reading app responses and interviews, and almost all are wrong. App responses likely to yield a favorable response are in fact pretty stereotyped, and most interviewers can't tell who is "the real deal" and who is just acting the part. This is also why phony elitism is rife in modern gaming.

Most raiders, in all but the most elite guilds, are pretty cynical. One of the reasons I still acknowledge Rabid is an amazing GM is that he recognizes this fact and has the good sense to work with it. I will here freely admit that the main reason that I failed at leading a guild was that I arrogantly refused to recognize that fact and work with it.

I remember Skip once said something like, "Everyone lies on the app. You slack off AFTER you get the job." Skip was one of the most cynical raiders I ever met. He was also one of the best. He did what had to be done, very well, and anything past that ran into a wall of jaded cynicism. A player (or professional) who does what must be done, very well, is infinitely better than the player who does everything decently well.

Have you ever read the book (or seen the movie) The Caine Mutiny? It's like comparing De Vriess to Queeg.



Nah. You know what the truth is? They stopped trying.

The last time Blizzard REALLY tried to use difficulty to gate content was...Yogg Zero. How did that one dev put it? "We gave the most elite raiders a real challenge. And like Michael Jackson with Lisa Presley, they didn't know what to do with it."

The Europeans said it couldn't be done and gave up. The Americans cheated. The Chinese mindlessly banged their heads against it for months and finally got it done. That's a cultural commentary if there ever was one.

HLK25. Legitimately difficult if very flawed design (ridiculous class imbalance and unnecessarily annoying/bug-prone mechanics). No one killed it early. Possible with 10/15%? Sure. Still took the best weeks to do if at all. By the end of the expansion, all guilds were on completely even footing gear- and stratwise, but only one was able to complete the encounter at 0%.

With those frustrating experiences behind them, and F&T transferred to LucasRanch...I mean Titan...what did the devs do? Create the appearance of difficulty, superficially challenging encounters for the raiders who now prided themselves "top 100" or whatever in an era where the watering down of the game had driven away three-quarters of the Western playerbase and even more amongst the highest tier raiders.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Blizz raid frames are not so bad, they could use better hot trackers but if you look in the settings you can adjust pretty much everything else. I do use use an addon called Raid Frame Indicators to track hots and such. But the blizzard frames track data faster than most raid frame addons(that are data mining Blizz raid frames >.>).

Omen is kinda meh at this point on anything but a tank(dick slapping tab fights for agro). For dps and healers if you get agro its because the tank isn't paying attention or you did something really dumb. Gone are the days of feinting/tabbing to not pull agro.

As far as prat(I do use it)... We use vent for most of our "raid communication" and chat for linking funny pictures during run backs.



Most people don't take into account how much easier it is on healers if a fight is shorter rather than longer. HPS for an encounter is determined by how much effective mana you have for a fight and how long a fight it is, then you just figure out where you can conserve and where you need to spam. The earlier in an expansion(less I-lev) it is the less you have to work with over the same time span.

It also might be worth noting that most of your heroic kills came much later in the Xpac(you didn't kill anything heroic in BWD/BoT/Throne until 3 months after Firelands came out). Timing means something.



When I do something I go 100%, if your happy with leaving things on the table so be it.



Pretty sure fun is subjective(its not like everyone in the world plays this or any other game). I happen to enjoy pushing myself to the limits of my class.



I again disagree with you. Your theory is just a theory until proven true. Kill some bleeding edge boss's w/o pre pots and show me how its better your way. I've already told you why its better "my way".



If someone fills out the entirety of our app we know what we getting if we accept them, if they don't we know that we are getting an incomplete player(We actually know how to play/know people who know how to play all the classes/specs). The only important things you can't find out ahead of time are whether they will show up every raid on time and what there attitude will be. Most people can't/won't give logs because they know they can't lie in a log. We will know whether they are taking unnecessary dmg and if they are following there rotations reliably and if they are a guild log you can even see if they make it to/into all there raids.



We also aren't paying people to join like you would a job IRL, we have no ties to anyone we trial and if they don't live up to the expectations they set/agree to then they get the boot. If we get someone in a raid for 4 hours we have a good idea whether we will be keeping them long term or whether we need to keep looking for a raider for that spot.



Why not do everything amazing ?



Maybe, its part of the now casual nature of the game. They want everyone to see every boss and the only way to do that is make the boss's number crunches so they can just tweak the numbers on there end to make the fight easy enough later on. This current tier isn't to bad all things considered. HoF has been fairly entertaining though its not terribly complex. Vezier is a pain due to all the swirly shit that 1-2 shots you, he is the new DDR boss, next couple are number crunches, windlord is a CC/dispell/kick don't stand in that encounter and amber shaper is a super gay vehicle fight. TBH just about every boss fight ever has been some combination of "heal through A" "Kill B really fast" "don't stand in C" "interupt D" I think that most fights just have more a team concept(like random ppl in vehicles) than an individual one these days.

I remember this was a good video always makes me feel sad and miss the old days.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8rd0-zVIBVo[/youtube]

Çhubathingy - Shaman - Royal Militia
Hoenhiem - Paladin - Royal Militia
Contact: Bnet= nurindun#1138 / twitter / twitch

I don't prepot and I cleared Ulduar before RM.

Sup.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

Assuming use of pot adds 30% dps over the course of its duration (which it doesn't, not even nearly), you are talking approximately a four second reduction in encounter duration, or the casting time of two back-to-back heals.

This is an example of what I was talking about before. These prepotting arguments really don't stand up to basic arithmetic.



Not really. I didn't raid much in Cata, didn't take it seriously. The raiding game didn't magically change since TBC/WotLK. I understand raiding, and I understand the encounters in question.



Do you get stares when you eat the garnish, plates and tablecloth? Or do you just stuff them in your pockets?



It's already been proven true, though.

Can you tell me that those guilds that pre-pot are better? You can't, because the practice is ubiquitous. Obviously, some guilds are better than others because they are better at, you know, playing the game. Silly ritualism plays no role in the skill equation.



No, you know what the person is saying on the app.

Logs? Logs are good. But we're not talking about logs, we're talking about the text of the app.



"The Pissing Contest Defense"



WoW is more hardcore than ever. Its appeal is now largely to those so insanely hardcore that they take any suggestion that they might not be amazing at it as a personal insult, who consider failure in the game cause for an existential crisis.

Why do you think recent Blue posts are more long-winded and more eye-rolling than Aestu posts? Why do you think Blizzard nuked the off-topic forum and doesn't even like people discussing anything non-WoW-related on their forums? Why do you think the nominal grind is so extreme now?

When we say "casual" what we most often mean is "hardcore bad". People who are so lost in the game that they resort to calling themselves "casual", in a sort of quasi-conscious concession to their guilt about playing it to excess and taking it super-serious.

This is why content is trivial. Because casual really means hardcore bad, people who will get an aneurysm if they can't do something in short order, because they live the game.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Sounds like you just did the math and it saved me 3+globals /shrug



Healing is actually very different.



Sounds like you didn't actually have anything to say. Wheres one of those "funny" pics you love to see people post?



You have yet to prove that pre potting is a negative. The best you can come up with is that you think its to much work for the gain that you DO in fact get.



An application is what ever you make people fill out. My application asks for an Armory, Logs, a SS and every keybind you have along with a bunch of other things. I can glean a great deal of a persons tangibles from that and the way they answer the questions gives me a good idea of the kind of person I'm dealing with(dedication/intelligence) and I even have the ability to ask questions after the app is filled out to satisfy any other curiosity's.



What did you expect? This "Skip" fellow and how you brought him into the thread had nothing to do with the argument. Just because he was good at his job in a raid doesn't make him special. If you really want to talk about him then what was his job in said raid? For all I know his job was to pick his nose and I'd rather have a guy who is average at everything then some guy who is gods gift at nose picking.

Better ?



Hardcore and Casual are just labels. Anyone can call themselves what ever they want. The game is far "easier" then it was in Vanilla/TBC. Doing endless amounts of dailys and grinding gold to buy progression might make you hardcore but it isn't "difficult" to do.

Çhubathingy - Shaman - Royal Militia
Hoenhiem - Paladin - Royal Militia
Contact: Bnet= nurindun#1138 / twitter / twitch