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Writing TLDRs fills me with self loathing

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Men can have emotional affairs too. Some men can separate love and sex, but not all men. Men generally have to have sex to feel love, while women generally need to feel love to have sex.

Relationships are far more complicated than "women are entitled bitches looking to cash in." Some men are violent. Some are lazy. Some are philanderers. Sometimes relationships just stop working.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

Callysta of Reverence

That's a different issue -- I don't think anyone goes shopping around for a gf/bf primarily concerned with the outcome of their future children (or even subconsciously). And what provides for a good outcome these days (education, innovation, wealth) involves very different qualities than what our ancestors would have been selecting.

As far as monogamy and bonding are concerned, it's true that there are some biological impulses that lead people to stay together, but obviously they aren't very strong. Most organisms do not practice monogamy, and in those that do, cheating is rampant. Just looking at the end result of relationships, it's easier to say that the drive to spread one's genes is stronger than the drive to bond (at least, I can say this with confidence for most guys).

It's also important to note that Darwin wasn't looking at humans. His idea of successful children involved having the most number of viable offspring, without regard to human ideas of crime or finances or anything else. In that sense, he would probably suggest that large families (even those in poverty) are doing well. From his perspective, or the biological perspective, you're better off being Ramesses II.

But all of those things are just to explain biological impulses that drive behavior, and why traditional families are unlikely to be a harmonious end result of human interactions.

I would agree with this.



It is in a woman's natural interest to be an "entitled bitch looking to cash in" just as it is in a man's natural interest to be a thug or pirate, to use his strength and boldness to "cash in" no matter the cost to others, provided that society gives him no compelling reason to do otherwise.

And, in American society, white women have the means to be "entitled bitches looking to cash in", and no compelling reason not to be.

And no it is not "more complicated" than that - just because the facts are bad doesn't mean there are other unspecified facts out there to make them not so bad.



And women who get in relationships with those kinds of men are crazy and stupid and deserve what they get. I've dealt with quite a few such women. They get what they want and they want what they get.

Women who get in with those kinds of men are attracted to them because they are exciting and dangerous, provide them a constant stream of the dramatic high they are addicted to. And they can't and won't accept anything else.



This is absolutely never the case.

Objects at rest, tend to stay at rest. Objects in motion, stay in motion, unless acted on by an outside force. If an object (in this case, a relationship) "stops working", it's because a force acted on it, from within or without.

If "just stopped working", it was probably due to someone's inability to accept the banality that is a mature relationship.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I disagree. And this is why Jews and Asians are over-represented against WASPs (and are tend to be romantically attracted to each other). Jewish and first/second-gen Asian men and women still aggressively spouse-shop, looking for a spouse they believe has good genes, a brilliant and stable mind, and a professional background.



Ramses had power and authority; he wore a muscled chest and ebony beard prosthesis and had sex with huge numbers of women - machismo in action. Same with Gilgamesh, big strong guy, had power and authority and women. It's no coincidence that all pre-modern societies always equated tyranny with rape and sexual excess, or that so many nobles have bastards with lowborn women.

In pre-modern settings, the gender strategy predicated by the Darwinian process is empirically justified.



Oh, but it is. The traditional family is a behavior pattern predicated on human nature and the drive for survival. It has been perpetuated because it has been very successful as such. Unstable societies, or societies based on nonviable models, tend not to survive.

It's easy to forget that men are animals. We no longer play the game of life by the rules of the jungle, but we are a product of that set of rules. It's no coincidence that Darwin inspired Freud.

Men rise above animals by committing to a different set of rules than what Darwin laid down. (This is also why "social Darwinism" is a fallacy.) From an evolutionary standpoint, yes, the teeming poor are more of a success than the few wealthy who use birth control. Down that path lay the Eloi and the Morlocks. But, that isn't what we want.

Viable social values must take into account both man's bestial nature and his noble desire to rise above it. Free market economics and feminist/legalistic/libertarian/whatever approaches do only the latter.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Physics has little to do with interpersonal relationships.

Unless they get violent, I suppose.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

When I meet women I consciously consider what kind of children we would produce, which can influence my decision to pursue or not. I think the increasing divorce rates are a reflection of people marrying someone who may have several attractive (physically and mentally) qualities versus marrying someone who would actually be "best friend" material. For this reason, I purposely avoid women who think/know they're attractive because while their genes may be good, their personalities and potential parenting styles will undoubtedley be worthless. It's tough though, to find a happy medium where the girl is cute/attractive, is still health conscious (i.e. not a landwhale), and hasn't been completely devastated by a society treating her different for being attractive.

I do this too and so do a great many people of both genders whether they'd admit it or act on it or not.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

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That's what they'd like you to believe. Honestly, marital infidelity was socially frowned upon regardless of which gender was the offending party, the only difference was that the possible consequences for women were worse since their husband could basically drop them and they'd have no means of support and wouldn't have much chance of marrying (and by extension finding support) again if he could prove infidelity. That was the only disadvantage women ever had in the matter, and it was a financial one. Now there are no longer any legitimate consequences (and social stigma no longer matters in a country where people go on television to proudly announce they've done things they should be deeply ashamed to have done) for women, and in some cases they're even awarded for it when they divorce after cheating with alimony and/or they stick some poor bastard for child support for a kid someone else fathered.

This fucking "women have always had it/used to have it so hard" bullshit has got to stop.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

My GF, who studying to be a Marital and Family Therapist (don't start, Aestu, I know where you stand on it... ;p) would disagree with this.

A relationship wouldn't just magically stop working. The problems and relational cycles between two people all have a basis in something. It often occurs that perhaps there was a problem that existed but was never discussed or approached in an effective way before....then it "blows up"

It may seem like it just "stopped working" but really...it wasn't working properly in the first place.


Relationships do take work to maintain...new problems come up, new compromises need to be made...new shit needs to get sorted through. That's where the commitment aspect is crucial. If either party decides it's not worth the effort to fix it...then it's done.









Well...whether you want to admit it or not...the very person you are attracted to is because of your genes trying to find a compatible mate for producing a child. It's why you'll pick someone with complimentary facial structures...strong immune systems...strengths to balance out your genes weaknesses and so on. Even men on the hunt for one night stands follow these subconscious drives.

What do men find attractive in women? It's all about waste/hip ratios much of the time. Why? For birthing. A woman with absurdly narrow hips and a stick body wouldn't be as good for child rearing.

Some men really like nice big boobs. What is that? Fertility. Nourishment...ESTROGEN...all evidence of the tools that woman could have to successfully carry and care for your child.




You're speaking in vast generalities. If you were correct, there would be no marriages, no grandparents still together, no parents still together, no long term relationship partners, no cohabitation.

I think the impulses are stronger than you'd like to believe...what has happened is society has gotten in its own way.


Lastly, I submit the anecdote of aging and companionship. When my grandfather died from lung cancer, my grandmother, who was perfectly healthy before...suddenly deteriorated rapidly. I watched as her mind rapidly deteriorated, she stopped being happy...drank more...and less than a year later, she died as well. Her last words, I'm told, were "I can't wait to see Lloyd"

I should note, they had a very combative marriage. Fights, disagreements, etc.

But when the love of her life left this world, her body started to shut down almost instantly.

They've done brain scans of people in long term relationships/marriages...they start to resemble one another. Even facial features start to mimic each other, it's true! People who are "happily married" live longer and happier than those who are not time and time again (though you're right, people in unhappy relationships tend to be just as miserable as lonely singles).


So let's just put a stop to this "oh humans were meant to be loners having sex with any random thing" it's just not true. Perhaps you'll realize that when you're old and alone. Having someone else with you who knows you better than anyone and loves you so, so deeply...that's something that I think is very powerful.

Romantic? Sure. Difficult if not impossible for some to reach? Yep. But it's real.

This. I truly think it's impossible not to fall in love with someone who knows nearly everything about you and accepts you as being greater than the sum of your parts anyway. Your strengths, your weaknesses. The trick is balancing this acceptance with also motivating people to become better people.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

Her field of study is the prevailing wisdom.

The prevailing wisdom clearly does not work.

Therefore the prevailing wisdom is wrong.

Therefore her field of study is a fraud and so is she.

She can disagree all she wants. Whether she's right on this particular issue or not, her field is fraudulent, and so is she. Because if she were thinking critically, it would be blatantly obvious to her that it is so.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Divorce rate = 50%
Job title = Family/Marital therapist

Capitalism!

This is completely untrue.

Go watch some movies, or read some books, from the first half of the century - the Twilight Zone series, for example, or Clint Eastwood movies (which are not accurate depictions of the Old West, but are very accurate depictions of the mores of the times in which they were made). Go read apolitical biographies of famous people (most Presidents before Reagan, for example). Walking out on one's wife was a major stigma, it's tantamount to turning one's back on society and is regarded in kind. Meeting with whores or other women of ill repute is okay, as long as the man (or woman) kept it to himself.

It was so for a very useful reason. As you point out, the man who walked out on his family, had an economic advantage. Society considered moral factors more important than economic ones, so it took steps to check the advantage of those who saw it the other way, by stigmatizing walk-outs and such.

You can't say the concept of the "royal bastard" is a feminist invention or that they wrote classical works in which patrilineal genealogy is a major theme (the famous half-helot Spartan general Agis, for example, or the tale of Orestes, or, more recently, black/white men/women in America). What do you think Patton was talking about when he said that the writers of the Post didn't know anything about "fornicating"? Hell, where do you think milkmaid jokes came from?

The reason you have the "Ronald Reagan B&W flick" view of the past that you do is because you get your notions on how it was from secondary sources (i.e., really bad blogs), never by looking at the past directly. The problem is, you look at the past - old books and movies, or others' perceptions of them - as a literal representation of the world they depicted, and not as a depiction of how those people saw the world and dealt with it - their value system.

The Torah commands that the corners of one's fields not be cut, that they be given to "the widow, the orphan, the stranger". Yes, being without a husband, or family/land/connections ("the stranger") was a terrible curse. But society had ways to manage it. The commandment is the direct religious equivalent of secular welfare.

The problem is, those kinds of social laws have a definite economic cost, and the libertarian/free market economics/"self-reliance" you support are fundamentally incompatible with those social mores. And when attempts are made to fill that same void with tax-and-spend, well, people try to argue that "free flow of wealth" will fulfill the moral need, when the fact is that just wasn't the case.

In your very post. You think people back then were motivated primarily by financial factors. That is the bias of the present day. That is the difference between then and now. Moral wisdom versus cold, hard economics. That is the cost of the free market. Moral decay. Money makes right.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.