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 Post subject: LOLITICS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 9:53 am  
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... rialPage_h

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... ding_now_2

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-m ... o-darkness

Good to know the most transparent administration in history is working hard to keep things on the up-and-up, LOL.

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 Post subject: Re: LOLITICS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:44 am  
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Being outraged about everything really takes the steam out of the one serious issue conservatives have every year or so to be angry about.


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 Post subject: Re: LOLITICS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:52 am  
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Don't worry, Tyranny isn't just around the corner. He told us so.


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 Post subject: Re: LOLITICS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:56 am  
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And under George W. Bush, the IRS went after the NAACP, Greenpeace and even a liberal church.

Honestly, the executive branch just has too much power.
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 Post subject: Re: LOLITICS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 11:04 am  
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Superchat wrote:
And under George W. Bush, the IRS went after the NAACP, Greenpeace and even a liberal church.

Honestly, the executive branch just has too much power.

Let's not forget the legislative branch's recent efforts to strip ACORN, Planned Parenthood, NPR, and PBS of their funding.


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 Post subject: Re: LOLITICS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 11:09 am  
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If you're mad about that, why not be mad about Obama doing it?

The government targeting groups(aside from law enforcement targeting criminals) is illegal and terrifying. It doesn't matter which side is targeting which side, it should worry the shit out of you.


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 Post subject: Re: LOLITICS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 11:14 am  
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I don't like it, but I don't feel bad for a group that's been in a state of constant outrage and bloodlust for the past 6 years.


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 Post subject: Re: LOLITICS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:01 pm  
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 Post subject: Re: LOLITICS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:11 pm  
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Mns wrote:
Being outraged about everything really takes the steam out of the one serious issue conservatives have every year or so to be angry about.


Wow, that you even admit this is a legitimate serious issue is amazing...

Mns wrote:
I don't like it, but I don't feel bad for a group that's been in a state of constant outrage and bloodlust for the past 6 years.


...but then you just lapse back to being yourself. I was almost excited for a second. :P


Superchat wrote:
And under George W. Bush, the IRS went after the NAACP, Greenpeace and even a liberal church.


I'm guessing you read the Salon article, LOL?

Salon wrote:
The well-known church, All Saints Episcopal in Pasadena, became a bit of a cause célèbre on the left after the IRS threatened to revoke the church’s tax-exempt status over an anti-Iraq War sermon the Sunday before the 2004 election. “Jesus [would say], ‘Mr. President, your doctrine of preemptive war is a failed doctrine,’” rector George Regas said from the dais.

The church, which said progressive activism was in its “DNA,” hired a powerful Washington lawyer and enlisted the help of Schiff, who met with the commissioner of the IRS twice and called for a Government Accountability Office investigation, saying the IRS audit violated the First Amendment and was unduly targeting a political opponent of the Bush administration. “My client is very concerned that the close coordination undertaken by the IRS allowed partisan political concerns to direct the course of the All Saints examination,” church attorney Marcus Owens, who is widely considered one of the country’s leading experts on this area of the law, said at the time. In 2007, the IRS closed the case, decreeing that the church violated rules preventing political intervention, but it did not revoke its nonprofit status.


So the same group of people on this board who regularly complain about churches and politics mixing, and often suggests that churches shouldn't be tax exempt in the first place, are going to complain when the IRS actually does it job but doesn't strip the offender of its tax-exempt status? Glad to see we're consistent.

In fact, in every case the article references, the author admits that the representatives of the groups in question violated the terms of their tax-exempt status by making political comments/endorsements. You're comparing investigations into groups that are tax-exempt and supposedly apolitical under one set of rules with groups that that are tax-exempt yet engaging in advocacy under a different set of rules.

So while I've been AFK the story got even better...can you say that the Bush administration volunteered confidential tax applications to an advocacy-journalism group?

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 Post subject: Re: LOLITICS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:48 pm  
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Facts:

The government CAN do things well.
Conservative and Liberal groups CAN promote worthy causes and positions and be agents of positive change.
The government CAN overstep its bounds.
Conservative and Liberal groups CAN latch onto unimportant issues for pure political gain.


The problem is, we continue to get caught up in our differences and pissing contests that nothing gets fucking done.


Jubber and Mayo are a perfect example of this.

Jubber constantly rages about liberals ruining everything and screwing over conservatives and thinks Obama is the antichrist. Meanwhile, he thinks Romney would have done better and wouldn't have just fucked with other things...and if he did "par for the course"

Mayo rages about conservatives and in general tells them to STFU and take their medicine. He thinks Mitt Romney is the antichrist. Meanwhile, he can't acknowledge that Obama might be a piece of shit...merely considers Obama's administration stealing liberties as part for the course.




We are so busy trying to be "right" that we sit and argue about stupid shit all day and which politician is a bigger douche than the other that it makes it ever easier for those that would use the government for evil to seize more power


It's pathetic. It's pathetic that neither Jubber nor Mayo can look at an issue from a big picture standpoint. They just want to keep pissing and yelling "I'm right, I'm right"


Those with power have been able to be corrupt unchecked. GW Bush was corrupt. Obama is corrupt. Reagan was Corrupt. Clinton was corrupt. Bush's daddy was corrupt.


You don't think every president ever has been signed off by a huge ass corporation or lobbiest groups?


Seriously, everyone shut the fuck up and stop tearing each other's hair out long enough to see the dildo that is being shoved in your ass by Democrats and Republicans alike.


Fucking seriously.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: LOLITICS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 2:55 pm  
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Post the IRS statute or shut the fuck up.


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 Post subject: Re: LOLITICS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 3:07 pm  
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Azelma wrote:
Jubber constantly rages about liberals ruining everything and screwing over conservatives and thinks Obama is the antichrist. Meanwhile, he thinks Romney would have done better and wouldn't have just fucked with other things...and if he did "par for the course"


Actually, Romney was a terrible fucking candidate and it's probably for the best that he lost, just like McCain before him...but that doesn't make President Obama any less terrible.

Azelma wrote:
It's pathetic. It's pathetic that neither Jubber nor Mayo can look at an issue from a big picture standpoint. They just want to keep pissing and yelling "I'm right, I'm right"


Still not as pathetic as Mr. "Don't listen when they tell you tyranny is just around the corner" running the "most transparent administration in history" wherein he meets with controversial figures across the street from the White House so he doesn't have to record their presence or release the information in FOIA requests trying to sweep every misstep of his administration under the rug. I don't think President Obama was directly responsible for what happened with these applications, but the response to finding out has created an incredible appearance of impropriety. Administration appointees at the IRS have known this had happened long before they testified before Congress that it didn't, which makes President Obama's assertion that they're going to get to the bottom of it sound like a hollow promise he's only making because he's obligated to do so.


Azelma wrote:
Those with power have been able to be corrupt unchecked. GW Bush was corrupt. Obama is corrupt. Reagan was Corrupt. Clinton was corrupt. Bush's daddy was corrupt.


You don't think every president ever has been signed off by a huge ass corporation or lobbiest groups?


Seriously, everyone shut the fuck up and stop tearing each other's hair out long enough to see the dildo that is being shoved in your ass by Democrats and Republicans alike.


Fucking seriously.


Do you ever get tired of this no one is right/wrong moral-relativism/objectivity for the sake of feeling above it all, or is having an actual opinion too much effort?

Hey, remember when Harry Reid had a "friend" tell him that Mitt Romney hadn't been paying his taxes back during the election? I wonder who that "friend" is going to turn out to be, and whether or not they work at the IRS? Reid trotted out the talking points about IRS investigations under the Bush administration today, and just like the Slate writer failed to note that the investigations were of 501(c)3 groups--who aren't allowed to engage in politcal advocacy but were doing it anyway--who had already had their tax-exempt status approved and not of 501(c)4 applicants.

Either way, whether it's republicans or democrats doing wrong, it shouldn't inspire a lot of confidence that you're not going to get screwed over for your views if some bureaucrat decides they don't like those views. With the government assuming a larger role in healthcare (among other things), this should be cause for concern.

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 Post subject: Re: LOLITICS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 3:35 pm  
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Jubbergun wrote:
Azelma wrote:
Those with power have been able to be corrupt unchecked. GW Bush was corrupt. Obama is corrupt. Reagan was Corrupt. Clinton was corrupt. Bush's daddy was corrupt.

You don't think every president ever has been signed off by a huge ass corporation or lobbiest groups?

Seriously, everyone shut the fuck up and stop tearing each other's hair out long enough to see the dildo that is being shoved in your ass by Democrats and Republicans alike.

Fucking seriously.


Do you ever get tired of this no one is right/wrong moral-relativism/objectivity for the sake of feeling above it all, or is having an actual opinion too much effort?

Hey, remember when Harry Reid had a "friend" tell him that Mitt Romney hadn't been paying his taxes back during the election? I wonder who that "friend" is going to turn out to be, and whether or not they work at the IRS? Reid trotted out the talking points about IRS investigations under the Bush administration today, and just like the Slate writer failed to note that the investigations were of 501(c)4 groups--who aren't allowed to engage in politcal advocacy but were doing it anyway--who had already had their tax-exempt status approved and not of 501(c)3 applicants.

Either way, whether it's republicans or democrats doing wrong, it shouldn't inspire a lot of confidence that you're not going to get screwed over for your views if some bureaucrat decides they don't like those views. With the government assuming a larger role in healthcare (among other things), this should be cause for concern.

Your Pal,
Jubber


Do people on FUBU ever get tired of lodging Aestu's false charge against me?

Explain to me how what I've said constitutes the lack of an opinion? Or how what I've said means "no one" is wrong? If anything, I think MOST politicians are wrong on most things, and some politicians are right about a some things. Some politicians have good intentions and desires to make things better and suck in execution. Others have desires to fuck shit up and help only themselves and have fabulous execution.

Because I choose not to align with 1 side and reject everything the other side says in one swift motion doesn't mean I lack any convictions. It means I see through the bullshit and mud slinging that both sides offer.

The fact that moral absolutism and partisan politics is considered the only "real" way to consider issues shows just how fucked this country is. Humanity is getting dumber if we think digging ourselves into holes and refusing to see the other side of the coin and compromise is going to get us anywhere.

Take one look at congress' approval ratings and how inefficient our government is at getting anything done and there's your proof. It's a failure on both sides of the aisle, and it's a result of this culture of absolutism. Everything is either white or black. Every issue, every problem, every solution. White or black. If people would consider both viewpoints and work together for a gray/bi-partisan consensus more often the world would be a much better place.



I think Obama is an asshole. I think Bush is an asshole. These are opinions and no, it's not splitting the difference to make people happy.

This does NOT mean all government is evil in and of itself. It does NOT mean that government is incapable of making things better. NOR does it mean that the simple solution is more government. What it DOES mean is that our current political system and leaders are fucking us sideways because of a number of factors that cannot be easily simplified.

I see what government does wrong, and what it can help with.

Liberals say government is the solution to everything (especially socially)
Conservatives say government is the solution to some things but not others (military versus healthcare, for example)
Libertarians say government is the solution to nothing.

I believe each "viewpoint" has merits and falsehoods. If you think one viewpoint is the only correct one, then you're a fucking idiot who isn't thinking logically.

I say government shouldn't be as ubiquitous as it is, especially given constraints of modern life. Nor should it be taken to the libertarian extremes, which is just as impractical and impossible.


We don't live in a vacuum. That's what Ayn Rand, Bill Mahr, Ann Coulter and every other person who has ever offered an opinion or "solution" to government/society has wrong. I refuse to force myself to align with the contradictions each political party/viewpoint offers.

Every issue should be evaluated separately and solutions should be arrived at after considering both sides and objective reality. This whole strict politics-based thinking is why shit is so fucked up in the first place.



But fine, I guess that's "not an opinion"


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 Post subject: Re: LOLITICS
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 1:11 am  
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Azelma wrote:
Mayo rages about conservatives and in general tells them to STFU and take their medicine. He thinks Mitt Romney is the antichrist. Meanwhile, he can't acknowledge that Obama might be a piece of shit...merely considers Obama's administration stealing liberties as part for the course.

You're a literal idiot.


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 Post subject: Re: LOLITICS
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 4:21 am  
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Mns wrote:
You're a literal idiot.


Azelma may be a please-everybody optimist who is susceptible to peer pressure, but he has a point. You start out comparing some people misusing their official position to covertly undermine people they regard as political enemies to both a proper exercise of power to investigate groups that violated laws regarding their tax exempt status and the legitimate, if disagreeable, fully transparent and open-to-scrutiny legislative process. It's a shitty apple-to-oranges comparison. Basically, some person or group working for the benefit of the party you most closely align with has done something uber-sketchy (actually, we're up to three possible scandals in the news this week), and your only counter-point is "well, republicans do stuff I don't like," never mind that none of that "stuff" is a misuse of power, illegal, unethical, or hidden from public view. You're exactly the bitter partisan Azelma describes.

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Jubber

EDIT: More information...

WSJ, Best of the Web wrote:
The IRS's Nonprofit Helper
A tax-exempt charity disseminated confidential tax information.

By JAMES TARANTO

The Internal Revenue Service last year supplied a left-leaning nonprofit charity with confidential information about conservative organizations, which the charity disseminated to the public, ProPublica reported yesterday.

The charity in question was ProPublica itself. We should acknowledge that "left-leaning" is our characterization; ProPublica describes itself inits own tax filings as "entirely non-partisan and non-ideological." ProPublica is legally obliged to be nonpartisan, for it enjoys tax-exempt status under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, which means that contributions to it are tax-deductible. By contrast, the organizations the IRS has acknowledged targeting on ideological grounds are 501(c)(4)s, meaning that they are permitted to engage in some political activity and only their operations are exempt from taxes.

According to yesterday's report, the IRS provided ProPublica with nine confidential applications from organizations seeking 501(c)(4) status, all of them conservative, of which ProPublica published six.

ProPublica reported Dec. 14 on one of the improperly supplied applications. It was from Karl Rove's Crossroads GPS, which ProPublica characterized as a "dark money group." That December report, which portrayed Crossroads as deceptive about its intentions, turns out to have buried the lead. The real story was the IRS, which the story finally got to in the 11th paragraph:

ProPublica wrote:
The IRS sent Crossroads' application to ProPublica in response to a public-records request. The document sent to ProPublica didn't include an official IRS recognition letter, which is typically attached to applications of nonprofits that have been recognized. The IRS is only required to give out applications of groups recognized as tax-exempt.

In an email Thursday, an IRS spokeswoman said the agency had no record of an approved application for Crossroads GPS, meaning that the group's application was still in limbo.

"It has come to our attention that you are in receipt of application materials of organizations that have not been recognized by the IRS as tax-exempt," wrote the spokeswoman, Michelle Eldridge. She cited a law saying that publishing unauthorized returns or return information was a felony punishable by a fine of up to $5,000 and imprisonment of up to five years, or both. The IRS would not comment further on the Crossroads application.
"ProPublica believes that the information we are publishing is not barred by the statute cited by the IRS, and it is clear to us that there is a strong First Amendment interest in its publication," said Richard Tofel, ProPublica's general manager.


What is one to make of this? We're with Tofel in thinking ProPublica's decision to publish the document is all but unassailable on First Amendment grounds. In fact, it seems to us that if you work at a government agency and want to make sure a confidential document gets published, a very effective tactic is to release it to a news organization, then warn it against publication.

Which raises the question: Did the IRS carelessly release the documents to ProPublica and then attempt to control the damage by threatening to prosecute? Or was the prosecution threat a case of reverse psychology, intended to goad ProPublica into publishing the documents? Occam's razor suggests the former, but either way, it doesn't do much to bolster one's confidence in the IRS's impartiality and competence.

This is not the only case in which tax-exempt nonprofit organizations have disseminated confidential information about disfavored conservative nonprofits. Yesterday's column noted that the Human Rights Campaign, a 501(c)(4) that advocates for same-sex marriage, supplied the Puffington Host with the National Organization for Marriage's donor list, which NOM says has to have come from the IRS.

But there's something especially rich about the IRS's use of a 501(c)(3), an organization that is supposed to be above politics altogether, to violate the confidentiality of a 501(c)(4), which is permitted to engage in some political activity.

Meanwhile, The New Yorker's Jeffrey Toobin claims that "the real scandal" is "that 501(c)(4) groups have been engaged in political activity in such a sustained and open way":

Jeffrey Toobin wrote:
As Fred Wertheimer, the President of Democracy 21, a government-ethics watchdog group, put it, "it is clear that a number of groups have improperly claimed tax-exempt status as section 501(c)(4) 'social welfare' organizations in order to hide the donors who financed their campaign activities in the 2010 and 2012 federal elections."


Toobin is wrong even if there is a case to be made for stricter policing of political activity by 501(c)(4)s. It is far more of a scandal that the IRS, which unlike Crossroads GPS or even Organizing for Action wields awesome coercive power, has been engaged in political activity, enforcing the law selectively at the expense of challengers to the party in power. That calls into question the very legitimacy of the government.

Furthermore, Toobin doesn't really believe what he writes about 501(c)(4)s, at least not consistently. If he did, he would have warned us about Fred Wertheimer. That's right, in describing Democracy 21 as "a government-ethics watchdog group," Toobin leaves out that it too is a 501(c)(4).


Azelma, unless this article has some glaring lies of omission, every president from Gerald Ford to George H. W. Bush managed to avoid any of these types of scandals, probably in part due to laws passed in the wake of Nixon's abuse of the organization. That means that while there's a long and storied history of abusing the IRS for political purposes, you can't legitimately say every president engaged in that type of abuse.


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