Bucket Guild | FUBU BH Forums

I Has a Bucket: Preventing bucket theft on Bleeding Hollow | FUBU: A better BH Forum
It is currently Sun Apr 20, 2025 9:54 pm



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 107 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:19 pm  
User avatar

French Faggot
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:15 pm
Posts: 5227
Location: New Jersey
Offline

I like Agave nectar for my sugar-replacing needs.

And I stand by tonic water. If you can't drink it straight, you're a bitch.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:40 pm  
User avatar

Old Conservative Faggot
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 12:19 am
Posts: 4308
Location: Winchester Virginia
Offline

I usually buy it when there's something in my system that alcohol alone won't kill...but I still don't drink that shit without something else in it.

Your Pal,
Jubber


AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:17 pm  
User avatar

Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:19 pm
Posts: 8116
Offline

Then supply the missing information, why don't you?

What does it matter if there's a correlation or not? A correlation is merely a statistic. Arguing about correlations is just a talking point. What matters is whether or not these substances cause cancer. And you don't put your own opinion down in that regard one way or the other.

Clearly no one just looks at the physical properties of something and makes a snap decision as to whether or not it's carcinogenic. They don't, because as Jubber pointed out, we don't have the understanding of the connection between the physical properties of substances and the organic origins of cancer to make that distinction, so we guess-and-check. As Jubber pointed out. By contrast, we can say if a physical substance is flammable just by looking at it, because we understand the phenomenon of combustion well enough to grasp the connection between the physical form of a substance and whether or not it will catch fire under the right circumstances.

So you say we don't understand how cancer research is done. It's our understanding it's based largely on animal studies and parsing copious statistics. Why don't you not merely say we are wrong, but set the record straight?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:38 am  
User avatar

Falcon PUNCH! Faggot
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 1:16 am
Posts: 5269
Location: Flolrida
Offline

I used to love mountain dew, still kinda dew but I got burnt out.
Sprite/7up, it's refreshing and delicious.
Semen is pretty good, but only when it's warm, poured straight from a throbbing cock. Shaken, not stirred.


Image
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:28 am  
User avatar

Pinheaded Pissant
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:11 am
Posts: 1679
Offline

Quote:
So you say we don't understand how cancer research is done. It's our understanding it's based largely on animal studies and parsing copious statistics. Why don't you not merely say we are wrong, but set the record straight?


This type of research involves many different disciplines including genetics, diet, environmental factors (i.e. chemical carcinogens). In regard to investigation of causes and potential targets for therapy, the route used starts with data obtained from clinical observations, enters basic research, and, once convincing and independently confirmed results are obtained, proceeds with clinical research, involving appropriately designed trials on consenting human subjects, with aim to test safety and efficiency of the therapeutic intervention method. Important part of basic research is characterization of the potential function of mechanisms of carcinogenesis, in regard to the types of genetic and epigenetic changes that are associated with cancer development. The mouse is often used as a mammalian model for manipulation of the function of genes that play a role in tumor formation, while basic aspects of tumor initiation, such as mutagenesis, are assayed on cultures of bacteria and mammalian cells.

I am willing to answer your questions but you should do some reading and have some background knowledge before we even can move forward with this.

I am unsure what you even want me to answer at this point other then "how is cancer research done."

You seem to think that correlations mean nothing or is not conclusive. I am not trying to tell you correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'.

It also seems to me that you think I am trying to argue whether or not 'these substances' cause cancer (please define 'these substances'). I was simply responding with a extremely brief explanation on how research on determining the carcinogenicity of an agent is conducted. My opinion is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with an explanation on how research is conducted.

You also seem to think the way research is conducted is flawed. I seriously doubt you even know how it is conducted as your own explanations fail to touch on subjects I could find in the table of contents of a cancer biology textbook.


Image
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:31 am  
Blathering Buffoon
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:01 am
Posts: 1036
Offline

I only drink water a 95%+ of the time, otherwise it's milk in cereal, alcohol, or coffee/tea related. It's kind of weird how that is so unusual.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:45 am  
User avatar

Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:19 pm
Posts: 8116
Offline

Highscore wrote:
Quote:
So you say we don't understand how cancer research is done. It's our understanding it's based largely on animal studies and parsing copious statistics. Why don't you not merely say we are wrong, but set the record straight?


This type of research involves many different disciplines including genetics, diet, environmental factors (i.e. chemical carcinogens). In regard to investigation of causes and potential targets for therapy, the route used starts with data obtained from clinical observations, enters basic research, and, once convincing and independently confirmed results are obtained, proceeds with clinical research, involving appropriately designed trials on consenting human subjects, with aim to test safety and efficiency of the therapeutic intervention method. Important part of basic research is characterization of the potential function of mechanisms of carcinogenesis, in regard to the types of genetic and epigenetic changes that are associated with cancer development. The mouse is often used as a mammalian model for manipulation of the function of genes that play a role in tumor formation, while basic aspects of tumor initiation, such as mutagenesis, are assayed on cultures of bacteria and mammalian cells.

I am willing to answer your questions but you should do some reading and have some background knowledge before we even can move forward with this.

I am unsure what you even want me to answer at this point other then "how is cancer research done."

You seem to think that correlations mean nothing or is not conclusive. I am not trying to tell you correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'.

It also seems to me that you think I am trying to argue whether or not 'these substances' cause cancer (please define 'these substances'). I was simply responding with a extremely brief explanation on how research on determining the carcinogenicity of an agent is conducted. My opinion is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with an explanation on how research is conducted.

You also seem to think the way research is conducted is flawed. I seriously doubt you even know how it is conducted as your own explanations fail to touch on subjects I could find in the table of contents of a cancer biology textbook.


I don't know about any other language, but in English, a pronoun refers to the most recently mentioned noun used in like context. So presumably that was what the word "these" was referring to. If you can't, or won't, make the connection, as to what "these substances" were, then I'm sure someone else who did will be happy to outline it for you, because it was no doubt clear enough for them. Or perhaps you're just assuming a pretense of non-comprehension so you don't actually have to engage my point logically. Either way the problem is on your end.

You reply with a quote from Wikipedia then go on for another three paragraphs without answering the question. If you say "no" but then won't supply alternative reasoning or information, you're just wasting bandwidth. If your claim is that the paradigm is beyond our comprehension then by that logic you should have already left the thread.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:58 am  
User avatar

Pinheaded Pissant
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:11 am
Posts: 1679
Offline

Thank you for quoting my entire post. I now defiantly know what you are referring to. I have gone back read everything that has been written up to this point and the only 'substance' which you seem to be referencing was brought up by you in your first post to me (you cited caffeine, plastics, and electromagnetic radiation). I asked you to clarify this because I am confused as to why you are even trying to discuss them. They have no relevance to how research is done.

As to engaging your point logically; I have no clue what your point is.

I explained why i was not answering your question in my response. I could also respond the same way you did; you failed to even clarify what you want me to answer. I already said I would be more then glad to answer your questions, but you are not giving me questions, just misinformed statements about how research is done.

I find it much easier to find out what a person's current understanding of the topic is and proceed from there. I can't even get you to do this so I'll make it easy on both of us: In as concise a manner as possible, what do you think this conversation is about?


Image
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:02 am  
User avatar

Old Conservative Faggot
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 12:19 am
Posts: 4308
Location: Winchester Virginia
Offline

You guys are funny.

What's even funnier is that the whole conversation is only tangentially relevant since we were really discussing the alleged differences between corn syrup and cane sugar, and only side-tracked after Mayo, for whatever odd Mayo-ish reason, brought up my search for a tumor via Splenda.

Your Pal,
Jubber


AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:03 am  
User avatar

Pinheaded Pissant
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:11 am
Posts: 1679
Offline

Honestly I am not sure what we are even discussing anymore.


Image
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:05 am  
User avatar

Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:19 pm
Posts: 8116
Offline

Highscore wrote:
Thank you for quoting my entire post. I now defiantly know what you are referring to. I have gone back read everything that has been written up to this point and the only 'substance' which you seem to be referencing was brought up by you in your first post to me (you cited caffeine, plastics, and electromagnetic radiation). I asked you to clarify this because I am confused as to why you are even trying to discuss them. They have no relevance to how research is done.

As to engaging your point logically; I have no clue what your point is.

I explained why i was not answering your question in my response. I could also respond the same way you did; you failed to even clarify what you want me to answer. I already said I would be more then glad to answer your questions, but you are not giving me questions, just misinformed statements about how research is done.

I find it much easier to find out what a person's current understanding of the topic is and proceed from there. I can't even get you to do this so I'll make it easy on both of us: In as concise a manner as possible, what do you think this conversation is about?


I think the fact that you apparently believe that claiming to have not read the post you replied to actually saves face pretty well sums up where you're coming from.

Ciao.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:10 am  
User avatar

Pinheaded Pissant
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:11 am
Posts: 1679
Offline

I should of said I went back and reread it. I agree my wording was a bit vague and should of been I have gone back reread everything that has been written up to this point.

If you don't want to discuss this then just say so.


Image
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:28 am  
User avatar

Pinheaded Pissant
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:29 pm
Posts: 1515
Location: Boston, MA
Offline

I think a more appropriate phrase is "correlation does not prove causation".

It sure as hell implies it.


Image

Akina: bitch I will stab you in the face
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:50 am  
User avatar

Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:19 pm
Posts: 8116
Offline

dek wrote:
I think a more appropriate phrase is "correlation does not prove causation".

It sure as hell implies it.


FACT: Wifebeater shirts are so named because they cause wifebeating.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:11 am  
User avatar

Pinheaded Pissant
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:11 am
Posts: 1679
Offline

TL;DR Toxicologist nerd spiel
--------------------------------------
You claim that medical science is inefficient when finding the carcinogenicity of agent X. You compare it to how they have no better method then “than mathematicians do whether a number is prime.” Being over literal, you can check is a number is prime or not by seeing if it is divisible by only itself and 1.What you probably meant was how in mathematics there is no known useful formula that yields all of the prime numbers and no composites. While there are an infinite number of primes you can model the distribution of primes but I digress.

To claim that current methods are insufficient and no better than “guess and check” to me demonstrates you lack understanding on how toxicology research is preformed. You cite a few agents such as “saccharine, caffeine, electromagnetic fields, and plastic” as evidence for the inconclusiveness of cancer research. Caffine, EMFs, and saccharine were the ‘hot-topic’ cancer agents in the 70’s but have since been disproven as carcinogens (see links). As for plastic, you need to be more specific. di-2-ethylhexyl phthalate itself is a carcinogen and has been banned in the EU due to concerns of it leeching out of plastics into foods. It is not found in all plastics. Certain chemicals used to make certain types of plastic are also carcinogenic, however because they are used as a reagent for synthesis rather than end product there is less concern here (however it still is present and cannot be ignored, but you are talking about decades if not centuries of exposure). Bisphenol A is currently being looked into as a cancer causing agent.

Statisitcs look for correlations that repeat them self. Data drawn is often from tens of thousands of clinical cases. It is also sorted by age, race, sex, weight, genetics, job, income, diet, and other factors. This is done so data cannot be refuted for being too vague. After all how do you know that the suspect carcinogen is actually harmless and it’s just black males in low income area that happen to have bad genetics when it comes to DNA polymerase and happen to be throwing the statistics? If you find a correlation between exposure to a suspect agent regardless of the aforementioned factors, then you have strong evidence saying there is a link.

To say that animal trials consists of “gorging lab animals with huge quantities of these substances in a refined form” shows little understanding of how this type of research is done. Model organisms, which is not restricted to just mice but extends to frogs, rats, zebra fish, bacteria, tissue cultures, hamsters, apes, chimps, and others are used when looking for further support. Areas of interest here include gene expression, rate of development, dose response, death rate, genetics protein expression, DNA repair, and I am sure others. You form multiple groups, each of which will receive a set dosage. You also form groups based on exposure time. Studies like this can take anywhere from months to years.

To say that these methods are “guess and checks” makes it seem like we have no understanding of how cancer origenates. In fact you say “we don't have the understanding of the connection between the physical properties of substances and the organic origins of cancer” which shows no knowledge or even attempt at understanding. A simple google search of “what causes cancer” results in 2 million hits on the subject. Even Wikipedia shows this is basic stuff. Do not assume your lack of knowledge is shared by everyone.

Now I will concede that you are right that you cannot with 100% certainty predict whether an agent is carcinogenic by looking at its physical properties and structure and no one tried to base their results off this alone. However, you can make very educated guess as to how it will interact with cellular functions in a carcinogenic manner. Our knowledge of molecular biology has grown exponentially over the past few decades. For example the previously mentioned Bisphenol A is structurally close to estrogen and can competitively bind to estrogen receptors as well as turn these receptors on at inappropriate times. Furthermore, an electronegatively charged molecule will most likely disrupt cellular molecules as well and possible interfere with onocogenes or tumor suppressing genes. High exposure compounds are under increasingly tighter regulation before being released to the market. What you want here is to refer to compounds which are not innately carcinogenic but are altered in the body making them carcinogenic. This is a recently discovered phenomenon and research is ongoing. The fact that the number of solved enzymes rises every year gives promise for software to emulate enzyme/chemical interaction.

Suspect agent is not just something chosen at random, but has been shown through statistical data to have a strong correlation between exposure and an increase in cancer rates. You claim that the medical statistics are nearly meaningless. Why? What makes them meaningless?

You say that “many externalities and fanatics and/or monied interests on one side or the other of the debate makes it impossible for the laymen of the to accept a plausible consensus.” This is only true if you get your data from faux news. A simple search on pubmed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed), a publically accessible site containing peer reviewed published findings, using key words such as “cancer” + “corn sryup” or “cigarettes” provides you articles on whatever hot topic issue is in the news. Even Wikipedia is an excellent source for finding current results in simplified terms are scientific papers is too much for a person.


Image


Last edited by Highscore on Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 107 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron

World of Warcraft phpBB template "WoWMoonclaw" created by MAËVAH (ex-MOONCLAW) (v3.0.8.0) - wowcr.net : World of Warcraft styles & videos
© World of Warcraft and Blizzard Entertainment are trademarks or registered trademarks of Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. in the U.S. and/or other countries. wowcr.net is in no way associated with Blizzard Entertainment.
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group