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 Post subject: So this Rep woman shooting:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:29 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I have heard a lot about people wondering if the folks in washington should make less inflammatory remarks in politics, as if this woman was shot because she was running her mouth about something.

One, I don't think she was shot because she upset someone. This is America, and even here shooting rampages are rare, ESPECIALLY one involving elected officials.

Two, I don't think people should mind what they say in case they might get shot by a crazy person. Freedom of speech, to me, is more important than the near non-existant risk of getting shot over a difference of opinion.

I know that the media is blowing out of proportion this whole thing every time they mention that maybe we should tone it down a bit. But do people really feel that way? Do they think we should tone it down just in case some crazy with a gun might want to take pot shots at us in a grocery store?

Or should we take my approach, and never bend against crazy people that may or may not be out there?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:50 am  
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MegaFaggot 5000
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This wasn't some sort of blitz where an elected official happened to get shot, this bro got behind the house rep and shot her in the head at point blank range. This was calculated and cold-blooded. Taking this into account, its kind of ridiculous to think that she didn't do something to piss someone off, considering this dude REALLY wanted her dead and she IS an elected official.

This guy is probably crazy, sure, but I know the first thing that came to mind when I heard someone shot a Democratic house rep was "Oh boy, so the shit's finally hit the fan, huh?". What does that say about our political climate when the first thing I think of when a congressman is shot is that some tea party crazy finally got off their rocker and shot someone?

It really does take some huge balls to put someone's name in crosshairs and refuse any sort of culpability (I'm talking to you, Palin).

There's a difference between having an opinion and sending death threats and vandalizing offices over political differences.

For years people like Palin and Beck have been talking about the government killing your grandma and some sort of megapocalypse since liberals are in control of the White House and have been passing these things off as reality. In all honesty, I'm surprised it took someone to try and cap a congressman, and I'll be surprised if this doesn't happen again in the near future.


RETIRED.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:59 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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there are too many convenient things in this whole event. It's playing into this whole "us vs them" argument and a need for non-anonymity.

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Hear what he had in his safe? Or this:http://beforeitsnews.com/story/347/678/AZ_Rep_Gifford_Subscribed_to_Shooters_You_Tube_Channel.html

Whole lotta weird with this monarch butterfly manchurian candidate scenario. Even the 911 calls vary. Question is, what's going to be pushed through legislation this time?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:59 am  
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Stupid Schlemiel
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvQbkPS8zCA[/youtube]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:00 am  
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Fat Bottomed Faggot
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:53 pm
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Wait what the hell's going on?

I've not heard of this, or any other shootings.


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:33 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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The shooter had a driver. The police say they think he didn't act alone.

This was a political assassination.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:15 am  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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@ Mns. Shooter is not a tea party member.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47336.html

@ Aestu. I heard they were only certain that he did not drive himself in a car or other method of transportation. He could have taken a bus, a cab or had his Dad drop him off to get his hair cut. At this point, no one is entirely certain. To state with absolute certainty that he had a driver is a stretch.


Cab driver:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110109/ap_on_re_us/us_congresswoman_shot_gunman


I think it was likely not anything more than some delusional shitstain who hadn't been taking his meds and somehow got his hands on a handgun (which is not hard in the state of Arizona)

in b4 'but but but but you NEED an M1A1 Abrams tank and surface to air missiles for deer hunting and home defense!!1one'


Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:14 am  
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Stupid Schlemiel
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Quote:
in b4 'but but but but you NEED an M1A1 Abrams tank and surface to air missiles for deer hunting and home defense!!1one'


You guys should try Canada's gun control laws.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:18 am  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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The answer is neither an outright ban on gun ownership nor widespread gun ownership.

I'd discuss this more, but I worked all last night...so off to bed I go.


Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:26 am  
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Obama Zombie
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Battletard wrote:
The answer is neither an outright ban on gun ownership nor widespread gun ownership.

I'd discuss this more, but I worked all last night...so off to bed I go.

Kinda like what we have now? Citizens in most states are allowed to own guns unless they did something to fuck that up...

I like guns. I think they're fun to shoot. I think they're also capable of saving my families life should someone ever break into my house late at night.

Also, what is Canada's gun laws...?

Quote:
What does that say about our political climate when the first thing I think of when a congressman is shot is that some tea party crazy finally got off their rocker and shot someone?

It says you're an idiot and you're automatically going to assume the worst of the Tea Party because you have some chip on your shoulder. Also, bigot/racist/xenophobe/"nice google"/etc.

Quote:
It really does take some huge balls to put someone's name in crosshairs and refuse any sort of culpability (I'm talking to you, Palin).

There's a difference between having an opinion and sending death threats and vandalizing offices over political differences.

But it's Ok for the President to refer to Republicans and his critics as enemies that need to be punished? Both sides have their rhetoric and their mouth-pieces that say shit that not everyone agrees with. My problem is you only think the Right is guilty of this kind of shit...
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:04 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnalshift wrote:
I like guns. I think they're fun to shoot. I think they're also capable of saving my families life should someone ever break into my house late at night.


A gun should be properly secured when not in use.
A properly secured weapon is inaccessible while your home is being invaded.

A home invader is likely to get the drop on you should he have the inclination to enter your home armed in the first place and you will die far from your weapon unless you walk around with a thigh holster at all times of day and night.
The invader will likely kill you with a gun he would not have access to if you didn't have access to them either.

Empirically, many die daily in America to gun violence, but very few are saved by gun ownership.

Countries that do not have widespread gun ownership have far less violent crime, and most countries that have issues with violence resolve them through disarmament - so the argument that weapons reduce the likelyhood of violent crime is empirically false.

Most home invaders stake out homes and try to invade them when no one is present. Armed home invasions are very, very rare.
Why would anyone want to invade YOUR home, anyway?

The only reason people like to own guns is a lack of self-mastery - an inability to be a man and face life without this toy. Proof of this is that you make two completely unrelated and equally irrational statements in favor of guns - but the only common theme of both arguments is a morbid fascination with an instrument of killing. The appeal is psychopathological.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:37 am  
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Stupid Schlemiel
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 4:53 pm
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^
That


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:45 am  
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Obama Zombie
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 1:48 pm
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I wish I was as niave as you.

Aestu wrote:
A gun should be properly secured when not in use.
A properly secured weapon is inaccessible while your home is being invaded.

This is not true. I can secure my weapons in a bed-side safe that opens with the swipe of a finger. The whole process takes a second and that second is all that stands between me arming myself when I hear a suspect noise in the house.

Quote:
A home invader is likely to get the drop on you should he have the inclination to enter your home armed in the first place and you will die far from your weapon unless you walk around with a thigh holster at all times of day and night. The invader will likely kill you with a gun he would not have access to if you didn't have access to them either.

You're assuming the only weapon I have is bed-side. Without small children in the house I can leave weapons laying in all sorts of places, despite what you say about needing to secure them all. Fact is, regardless of where I am in the house, I could be close to a loaded weapon.

The over-arching truth to this all is if I had no weapons in the house I'd be less safe in the event of a home invasion than if I had one, because there is still the chance that I would be near that single weapon... and if I didn't have a weapon, well, I'd be a sitting duck at my aggressors mercy.

Quote:
Empirically, many die daily in America to gun violence, but very few are saved by gun ownership.

Countries that do not have widespread gun ownership have far less violent crime, and most countries that have issues with violence resolve them through disarmament - so the argument that weapons reduce the likelyhood of violent crime is empirically false.

If a person kills another person with a gun, the gun isn't to blame... the person who pulled the trigger is. Also, the person who was killed is likely to die through some other means; knife, hands, vehicle, etc. If you're that determined to do harm to a person you'll find a means to do harm. That's a fact. Now, as for the fact that more people die to gun violence than are saved by guns... the fact that people are saved by guns is all enough reason to not have a ban on them. Criminals, regardless of the law, will have their hands on guns.

Even if you were to disarm an entire country gun violence wouldn't drop to zero because the people who are using the guns for malicious reasons are likely to be criminals, and criminals don't play by the same rules. I like using Washington DC as an example - they've had gun bans for decades now but there are still an outrageous number of gun-related crimes in the city. Why? Criminals don't follow the law. "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." I'm almost positive I'd never turn my gun on a person unless I'm truly threatened... so, until that day comes, my guns will sit idle and ready. Should I be disadvantaged when it comes to saving me or my families life just because you, or someone else thinks I might do harm to someone else without provocation?

Quote:
Most home invaders stake out homes and try to invade them when no one is present. Armed home invasions are very, very rare. Why would anyone want to invade YOUR home, anyway?

Your argument leaves room for armed home invasions to happen and for that reason I'll continue to arm myself. By your own admission, they do happen. As for why would someone want to invade my home? Why not? Maybe they think I'm an easy target because they're hoping I don't have a gun? Maybe they've been stealing mail from my mailbox and found out I'm financially comfortable, although I don't live in the most up-scale community? Maybe someone I know mentioned something about all the toys I have in my house? inb4 "Malcom X sedz..."

Aestu wrote:
The only reason people like to own guns is a lack of self-mastery - an inability to be a man and face life without this toy. Proof of this is that you make two completely unrelated and equally irrational statements in favor of guns - but the only common theme of both arguments is a morbid fascination with an instrument of killing. The appeal is psychopathological.

The world is a scary place and it's full of scary people. Many of these people, for no apparent reason, can snap and have a gun poined at the back of your head without warning. They don't care about my life or the value I place on it... almost like I'm simply human filler to them. Forgive me if I appear weak to you, but when it comes to the world and the people in it, I'd rather arm myself and have a fighting chance rather than being the one staring down a barrel of a gun with no way to defend myself. Without my morbid fascination, I could be dead, my wife could be raped and my son could be gutted and used to transport drugs across the border. Yea, not likely... but, it could happen. Should either of us be faced with that day I'll be more prepared to defend myself than you would be... and I'm fine with that.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:53 am  
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Kunckleheaded Knob
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I have to side with Aestu here.
I do not have numbers or facts at hand, but I am willing to bet that far more family members or friends are killed when the owner of a house shoots them thinking they are a home invader.

Don't you think owning a gun for protection against a home invasion...makes you more paranoid to home invasions? Thus you are quicker to draw out your weapon if you hear any noise in your house...including if it's your niece getting some ice cream or something? Sure your response will be that being trained to correctly and quickly identify the noise in your house is necessary in your scenario of owning the gun and using it for protection...but let's talk about the general gun owning population? Do you think everyone is qualified to make that split second decision?

To give eturnal some credit here, the biometric scanning bed safe is a responsible option if you must own a gun for that reason. Kudos for that certainly.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:59 am  
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Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:10 pm
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Henq wrote:
I have to side with Aestu here.
I do not have numbers or facts at hand, but I am willing to bet that far more family members or friends are killed when the owner of a house shoots them thinking they are a home invader.

Don't you think owning a gun for protection against a home invasion...makes you more paranoid to home invasions? Thus you are quicker to draw out your weapon if you hear any noise in your house...including if it's your niece getting some ice cream or something? Sure your response will be that being trained to correctly and quickly identify the noise in your house is necessary in your scenario of owning the gun and using it for protection...but let's talk about the general gun owning population? Do you think everyone is qualified to make that split second decision?

To give eturnal some credit here, the biometric scanning bed safe is a responsible option if you must own a gun for that reason. Kudos for that certainly.


Paranoid or not, it can happen to anyone. I live in the middle of bumfuck nowhere in Maine. 90% of the population here leaves their doors unlocked. Murders, robberies, etc are very very very very very rare around here... and its HUGE news when something does happen. My home got robbed once, and no, the door wasn't unlocked. We weren't home at the time, but it wasn't a stakeout... the guy just walked up and down the road breaking into every house along the way, until he broke into one with somebody home and they called the police after the guy ran off.
I personally don't own a gun and don't want to, but I certainly understand why others might want to, and respect their right to do so.


Myrrar
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