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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:45 pm  
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Laelia wrote:
Tehra wrote:
Given that Revelation also contains descriptions of the zodiac as it moves across the earth, there's a lot of room for interpretation in Revelation. Besides, a seal is a seal of approval. If you don't have a seal, be glad it's only 5 months instead of an eternity, even if you're conscious for it.

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(pssst, the seal isn't limited to "christians")


Revelation 7:2-4
2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

I doubt "the servants of our God" includes atheists.


Context. You have 144,000 being "seal"ed. You then have the listing of the tribes.

On that listing, the tribe of Dan is nowhere to be found. The Tribe of Dan is marked for their love of their idols and their rejection of anyone else's word, and won't have the opportunity in the first batch like the other tribes do. Aka, "we know better, we accept we might be wrong though, so we'll miss the first boat as a fair trade to have a chance later".

If you're scouring pages of the bible looking to disprove faith, you're trying to extinguish a blaze with napalm.


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:47 pm  
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Laelia wrote:
Have you read Revelation? It's pretty clear on what "condemnation" is, and it isn't a very pleasant experience. I was wrong to use the term Hell, but the Bible is pretty unambiguous on what happens to those who don't believe in God.


Have you read Dante's Purgatorio? If your worst sin is to not believe in God, that seems like a pretty damn fine afterlife.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:04 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
Laelia wrote:
Have you read Revelation? It's pretty clear on what "condemnation" is, and it isn't a very pleasant experience. I was wrong to use the term Hell, but the Bible is pretty unambiguous on what happens to those who don't believe in God.


Have you read Dante's Purgatorio? If your worst sin is to not believe in God, that seems like a pretty damn fine afterlife.


Divine Comedy if anyone is wondering what he's talking about:

http://www.bartleby.com/20/
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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:20 pm  
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Tehra wrote:
Laelia wrote:
Revelation 7:2-4
2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

I doubt "the servants of our God" includes atheists.


Context. You have 144,000 being "seal"ed. You then have the listing of the tribes.

On that listing, the tribe of Dan is nowhere to be found. The Tribe of Dan is marked for their love of their idols and their rejection of anyone else's word, and won't have the opportunity in the first batch like the other tribes do. Aka, "we know better, we accept we might be wrong though, so we'll miss the first boat as a fair trade to have a chance later".

If you're scouring pages of the bible looking to disprove faith, you're trying to extinguish a blaze with napalm.


I'm not trying to disprove faith, I'm just demonstrating that a core element of Christianity is that non-believers will be gruesomely punished. The passages I quoted are pretty clear on that point.


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:57 pm  
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Laelia wrote:
I'm not trying to disprove faith, I'm just demonstrating that a core element of Christianity is that non-believers will be gruesomely punished. The passages I quoted are pretty clear on that point.


Luke 13:6-9
6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not,

"more time..."

Matthew 21:18-22
18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Genesis 18:22-33
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD.[d] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
26 The LORD said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”
“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”
29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”
He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”
30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”
He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”
He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”
32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”
He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”
33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

Matt 22:2-14 "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king, who made a marriage feast for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast, but they would not come.

Again he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, "Behold, I have made ready my dinner. My oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the marriage feast!"‘ But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his merchandise, and the rest grabbed his servants, and treated them shamefully, and killed them.

When the king heard that, he was angry, and he sent his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. "Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren’t worthy. Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the marriage feast.’

Those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good. The wedding was filled with guests. But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man who didn’t have on wedding clothing, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here not wearing wedding clothing?’ He was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and throw him into the outer darkness; there is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be.’ For many are called, but few chosen."


Don't sully the words with the works of man. It's simple. People are offered, people make choices, people will regret some, but you're still supposed to love your neighbor. When the world crumbles, and you're left looking for your foundations as a person, one of the things you'll look for is love and caring. Many people read, but few understand.


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:33 pm  
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Tehra wrote:
Don't sully the words with the works of man. It's simple. People are offered, people make choices, people will regret some, but you're still supposed to love your neighbor. When the world crumbles, and you're left looking for your foundations as a person, one of the things you'll look for is love and caring. Many people read, but few understand.


This has nothing to do with "the works of man" - I'm quoting passages from the Bible, and nothing you've said contradicts the clear meaning of those passages. "Love your neighbour" is fine (and is by no means restricted to theists), but divine punishment for non-believers is undeniably a significant theme of the Christian scriptures.


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:47 pm  
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Laelia wrote:
Tehra wrote:
Don't sully the words with the works of man. It's simple. People are offered, people make choices, people will regret some, but you're still supposed to love your neighbor. When the world crumbles, and you're left looking for your foundations as a person, one of the things you'll look for is love and caring. Many people read, but few understand.


This has nothing to do with "the works of man" - I'm quoting passages from the Bible, and nothing you've said contradicts the clear meaning of those passages. "Love your neighbour" is fine (and is by no means restricted to theists), but divine punishment for non-believers is undeniably a significant theme of the Christian scriptures.


You're happy to attribute the eventual "divine punishment" to some sort of wrong Christianity professes. What religion regards the unbeliever highly?

You wish to focus on something that happens to affect you, if it's true. That's your bone to pick with the religion. Remember, it's not just faith or works, it's both. Yes, many atheists are perfectly capable of undertaking "works" without attributing it to a religion or deity, just like many theists are perfectly capable of undertaking improper "works" while believing that all they need is faith. The harder of the two for most people is the concept of doing "good".

Was the kōan too vague? You need two hands to clap.


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:59 pm  
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Tehra wrote:
You're happy to attribute the eventual "divine punishment" to some sort of wrong Christianity professes. What religion regards the unbeliever highly?

You wish to focus on something that happens to affect you, if it's true. That's your bone to pick with the religion. Remember, it's not just faith or works, it's both. Yes, many atheists are perfectly capable of undertaking "works" without attributing it to a religion or deity, just like many theists are perfectly capable of undertaking improper "works" while believing that all they need is faith. The harder of the two for most people is the concept of doing "good".

Was the kōan too vague? You need two hands to clap.


You clearly missed the entire purpose of this conversation. Usd said "the whole "join us or go to hell" shit comes from people who are trying to control the masses, as with most people in power", so I quoted a passage in the Bible where Jesus makes essentially that statement. You replied that my quote was out of context, so I quoted some other passages that make the same point. To summarize - "join us or go to hell" is part of the Bible, and if you agree that such a statement would be an effort to "control the masses", then Jesus was trying to control the masses.


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:12 pm  
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Laelia wrote:
Tehra wrote:
You're happy to attribute the eventual "divine punishment" to some sort of wrong Christianity professes. What religion regards the unbeliever highly?

You wish to focus on something that happens to affect you, if it's true. That's your bone to pick with the religion. Remember, it's not just faith or works, it's both. Yes, many atheists are perfectly capable of undertaking "works" without attributing it to a religion or deity, just like many theists are perfectly capable of undertaking improper "works" while believing that all they need is faith. The harder of the two for most people is the concept of doing "good".

Was the kōan too vague? You need two hands to clap.


You clearly missed the entire purpose of this conversation. Usd said "the whole "join us or go to hell" shit comes from people who are trying to control the masses, as with most people in power", so I quoted a passage in the Bible where Jesus makes essentially that statement. You replied that my quote was out of context, so I quoted some other passages that make the same point. To summarize - "join us or go to hell" is part of the Bible, and if you agree that such a statement would be an effort to "control the masses", then Jesus was trying to control the masses.


reread what i bolded and underlined for you 6 hours ago.

Those who oppress in this realm based on the eventual divine punishment are people using the sword instead of words.

If you look for weeping and gnashing of teeth in the bible, you find most of them involve unbelievers. But then you find this nugget:

Matthew 24:51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If a seed is planted in bad soil, it will have difficulty growing and producing fruit. Most people know that what the churches do and say are two different things. Most of them have been infected, in a manner of speaking. I don't defend the actions of organized religion. It's one thing to tell someone about your beliefs, it's another to force feed it to them in an unloving manner.


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:48 pm  
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Tehra wrote:
Laelia wrote:
You clearly missed the entire purpose of this conversation. Usd said "the whole "join us or go to hell" shit comes from people who are trying to control the masses, as with most people in power", so I quoted a passage in the Bible where Jesus makes essentially that statement. You replied that my quote was out of context, so I quoted some other passages that make the same point. To summarize - "join us or go to hell" is part of the Bible, and if you agree that such a statement would be an effort to "control the masses", then Jesus was trying to control the masses.


reread what i bolded and underlined for you 6 hours ago.

Those who oppress in this realm based on the eventual divine punishment are people using the sword instead of words.

If you look for weeping and gnashing of teeth in the bible, you find most of them involve unbelievers. But then you find this nugget:

Matthew 24:51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If a seed is planted in bad soil, it will have difficulty growing and producing fruit. Most people know that what the churches do and say are two different things. Most of them have been infected, in a manner of speaking. I don't defend the actions of organized religion. It's one thing to tell someone about your beliefs, it's another to force feed it to them in an unloving manner.


Read what I underlined in that same quote. Or I can underline something else:

John 12:47-49
47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

You seem to be arguing against points that I didn't make, and ignoring the one I am making.


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:10 pm  
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Laelia wrote:
Read what I underlined in that same quote. Or I can underline something else:

John 12:47-49
47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

You seem to be arguing against points that I didn't make, and ignoring the one I am making.


You do know that what you underlined means "Hey, I told you some stuff, you have the choice to listen to it and practice it. If you don't, you'll have to answer to someone less nice. This disclaimer brought to you by the dude upstairs who tends to yell at me to say these things so we have an 'I told you so' clause later.", right? It doesn't mean "BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY, MUAHAHAHA" or some such crap. It just means you have options.

Pretty sure the concept of hell is a just a tad bit overstretched anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:14 pm  
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Keep in mind, Jesus didn't write the bible. not to mention there were some 30 gospels that never made it in because some guy back in the day was like y'know what, thats just going to be too thick a book, so lets cut it at like 4.

You can't preach that Jesus is peaceful and forgiving and all-loving and then say that he's going to burn you all to cinders if you don't agree with him.

Take a look at the HISTORY of Jesus's life, and then measure it against what people dozens of years later WROTE that he said. If it doesn't sound like something Jesus would have said, compared with what he historically has done, I tend to disregard it.



and yeah, hell wasn't a fiery inferno of evil til dante came around. Hell is supposed to be the heart breaking isolation from God, like Lucifer first endured. If you're an asshole, i doubt you're going to get jabbed by a pitchfork in the ass by some goaty looking fool while being set on fire. It misses the point. Just like mel gibson's passion.


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:22 pm  
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Tehra wrote:
You do know that what you underlined means "Hey, I told you some stuff, you have the choice to listen to it and practice it. If you don't, you'll have to answer to someone less nice. This disclaimer brought to you by the dude upstairs who tends to yell at me to say these things so we have an 'I told you so' clause later.", right? It doesn't mean "BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY, MUAHAHAHA" or some such crap. It just means you have options.

Pretty sure the concept of hell is a just a tad bit overstretched anyway.


The options according to the quote are a) accept Jesus and the things he says or b) be condemned by God. That's what I've been pointing out the whole time. I'm glad to see you agree with me.

Usdk wrote:
Keep in mind, Jesus didn't write the bible. not to mention there were some 30 gospels that never made it in because some guy back in the day was like y'know what, thats just going to be too thick a book, so lets cut it at like 4.

You can't preach that Jesus is peaceful and forgiving and all-loving and then say that he's going to burn you all to cinders if you don't agree with him.

Take a look at the HISTORY of Jesus's life, and then measure it against what people dozens of years later WROTE that he said. If it doesn't sound like something Jesus would have said, compared with what he historically has done, I tend to disregard it.



and yeah, hell wasn't a fiery inferno of evil til dante came around. Hell is supposed to be the heart breaking isolation from God, like Lucifer first endured. If you're an asshole, i doubt you're going to get jabbed by a pitchfork in the ass by some goaty looking fool while being set on fire. It misses the point. Just like mel gibson's passion.


So the Bible isn't a reliable foundation on which to base one's faith? No arguments here.


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:31 pm  
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Jon Stewart to the typical religious and atheist americans:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-a ... th-threats


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:00 am  
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Laelia wrote:
Tehra wrote:
You do know that what you underlined means "Hey, I told you some stuff, you have the choice to listen to it and practice it. If you don't, you'll have to answer to someone less nice. This disclaimer brought to you by the dude upstairs who tends to yell at me to say these things so we have an 'I told you so' clause later.", right? It doesn't mean "BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY, MUAHAHAHA" or some such crap. It just means you have options.

Pretty sure the concept of hell is a just a tad bit overstretched anyway.


The options according to the quote are a) accept Jesus and the things he says or b) be condemned by God. That's what I've been pointing out the whole time. I'm glad to see you agree with me.


Laelia wrote:
Usdk wrote:
the whole "join us or go to hell" shit comes from people who are trying to control the masses, as with most people in power.

Mark 16:15-16
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I guess Jesus was trying to "control the masses"?


that referred to this:

Dvergar wrote:
Usdk wrote:
Until someone here on the religious side of the argument starts saying that those on the other side are going to hell and burning for eternity and shit, lets try and keep from lumping us all in with the zealots.


Right, when arguing Christianity it's important to ignore the basic tenets of the religion.


The basic tenets of the religion are not to oppress the unbeliever, but to explain if needed. What you cite refers to what'll happen at the end, which is something the unbeliever will read and either accept or reject.

People use those words to suit their agenda, much like you use them to suit your argument that it's all about "control". If you want to be "free", you have the ability to make that choice and find out what happens later. Not sure why you're so concerned about attributing "control of the masses" to a deity that's already supposed to be in control of everything in the first place. Someone in control doesn't need to take what's already theirs.

I have said it's your choice. I haven't said where you're going. Do I believe that you'll go where you believe it says? No. I believe you'll find a way out of it. Condemnation is a vague term, anyway. Ever been scolded as a child and cry? It feels like the end of the world to you. Ever have a "holy father" figure scold you as you're leaving this plane? It's the same core feeling, just a sense of scale. Christianity teaches that God loves you, and you should love him, and love yourself, and love each other. Eventually when you let the kids run around the playground recklessly, you need to show some tough love to bring them back in order.

Or "control", as you see it.


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