myrrar wrote:
I'd like to think I have a much more indepth understanding of exactly what went on than the rest of you.. and the insinuation that TB was a guild comprised of skilled players withut any regard for personality is bogus. We didn't take many skilled players because they wouldn't fit with the atmosphere of the guild. I've bene in a few different top end raiding guilds in my time, and TB was completely unique in every regard. Really I've never been with such an awesome group of people, and we had a LOT of fun just chilling in vent, and we all were very good friends. Theres a good reason why a lot of us stuck with the guild and didn't just transfer out until the end.
Our mistake was this:
We had a solid raiding roster of 28 at the end of WOTLK. If that raiding roster had stayed, we would have been fine. We lost 8 or so of those people before/right after cata hit to RL issue and other things. We were unable to fil raids and had to desperately recruit. We took some.. not so skilled people.. which obviously didn't help. We still progressed due to the majority of the players still having a very high level of skill, but it was going downhill. This caused many long term members to become fed up with the game.. and we lost a few more old time players, most to just quitting. Some of the people who had been around for only 5 months or so server xferred, leaving us in a worse position. We would raid and attempt hardmodes with 20 ish people in raid.. which was no fun at all. Finally it just got to be too much and we threw in the towel.
The recruitment issue is a very real thing at the top tier of raiding right now. With 10 man content offering the exact same rewards as 25, people are more apt to form up in 10 man guilds locally, rather than server transfer/faction change to take a shot being an app at a major guild like ours. Again, we would have been fine if we didnt lose so many people. I realize a lot of your guilds are getting apps, but please don't take this as an arrogant jab or anything like that, but I would assume most of those players weren't capable, or skilled enough to raid on a US/World competative level for whatever reason. Its a bit different when you're a hardcore progression guild; the skill level required for recruits is much much higher.
A lot of people hated us on this server, and are glad to see us gone.. and I personally don't care. Sure, some TB players were arrogant fucks, and dicks a lot of the time, but not all of us were. I dunno, I may be pretty mean sometimes but if any resto druid messaged me asking for gemming/gearing/spec advice, I'd gladly give it. Either way, the few of you I've had the pleasure of interacting with, its been fun.
TL;DR
Peace.
You're not talking to scrubs or people who have never been in high end raid guilds and that you speak as if we have no frame of reference for this discussion is telling. As is your apparent conviction that because some people are chummy with each other they are therefore special or awesome.
Coco leaving did not break TB.
TB wasn't "desperately recruiting" - and yes I am thinking in significant part of my app being rejected at a time they supposedly badly needed skilled raiders. By the same token, making the choice to integrate seriously unreliable people like Whael and Dagr into the guild was a serious mistake, misjudging the character of people like Grognan, as was the choice to make the public face of the guild people like Iapeto and Sarcasm who were universally despised.
It's worth noting that DU has a long WL every night and competes at TB's level. The spigot was no drier than TB chose to make it for themselves. I know several individuals by name who chose TB over DU for no reason than how bad TB's rep was.
Having played with a good number of TB members, my experience has been that although some are quality players, a good many more are elitists who, although competent, are not exceptional on the level they believe themselves to be. And those individuals in question aren't the recent applicants.
What Boredalt said is right on. If a guild seems to be crumbling one raider at a time there is a reason why. Something is lacking. Progression alone won't keep a team together for long.
I don't buy this "but we were so special" BS. Some guilds ARE special. TB wasn't. The very fact that you think TB was "special" hints at the deeper attitudes that I can guarantee you are what really killed the guild - "we are so special/awesome/whatever". Yes, that attitude is lethal to guilds. It drives new players away and leads to hubris and complacency. Long before it became generally known that TB was in trouble, I always noticed Kerym, for example, was never in the company of other TB members.
You take the good with the bad. You can't call people your friends or take pride in their strengths and accomplishments then disassociate yourself from their negative behavior. If you sleep with dogs you will smell like shit.
EDIT: It's also worth noting that the LK lockout reset may, in the long run, have been what ultimately killed TB - the influence on morale, the internal drama associated with the move resulting in Monique/Beaten/Lubricate leaving, and above all else the ridicule it inspired that even WoWProgress made a callout article on and turned potential recruits away.