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That, and even with the cord still attached, there's a pretty big period during the final trimester or so where the fetus could conceivably survive without the mother. I think that's one of the reasons why this is such a touchy subject. There are too many deeply held beliefs/assertions and no definitive answers about who is or isn't correct.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Let’s see. Looking for an artery, I introduced eating puppies and kittens, ancient works being evidence of aliens, insinuation that people with long prison terms should be executed, women are easy, presidential powers, Egyptian protest accomplished nothing, unborn babies aren’t people, and Lance Armstrong cheated. Barely a scratch. You people are tough.

Boredalt - 80 Dwarf Priest - Dissension

But a fetus is very much alive - It's just on life support. Along the same lines, a full-term baby born to the world is classified as a full-fledged human and is given protections under law (from things like murder) but it can't function individually, either. A 24-week premie is given the same protections. In either case, the newborn child would die if it was left to its own devices so using the umbilical cord as the 'living' argument is a poor one. Why is an inutero child not protected by the laws which would protect it minutes later the moment it's born?


Both cases, someone makes a decision and someone dies.

I'm neither for or against abortion, but anyone who would carry a child for 8-9 months(except under EXTENUATING circumstances) and then abort it is disgusting.

Almost all abortions are first trimester. Many are before the fetus is even really formed past squishy lump of goo stage. Late term abortions (8-9 months, or even second trimester) are usually due to severe complications, such as the mother is going to die, or the child is going to or has already died.

Basically, barring a few statistical outliers, abortion is pretty much either very late contraception for someone who was too stupid to use it or was in a situation where they weren't given the choice, or a medically necessary procedure due to complications. That's not to say that the girls who get one because they were too stupid to use a rubber shouldn't have... well... used a rubber instead. But a lot of the things people "know" about abortion are absurd.

A woman who would carry a child for 8 months and then just say "oh, nevermind" and abort it is probably a sociopath.

Akina: bitch I will stab you in the face

The problem is that the starting and ending point is your own opinions and unwillingness to present them straightforwardly and in their own right.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

The Romans practiced infanticide and considered cultures that did not (such as the Jews) degenerate. However, they also considered other cultures that practiced infant sacrifice (such as the Phonecians) also morally incorrect, because the Romans were a very child-centered people (in the same way the Jews themselves are) and believed that any faith that prescribed the ritual killing of children was evil and wrong.

I agree with this standpoint - the value of life, not the condition of being alive, should be the first consideration.

Interestingly, although they did not consider infanticide to be evil, they did consider abortion to be morally incorrect because they saw it as a refutation of nature and maternity. I agree with this on a conceptual but not practical level.

The neat distinction you are trying to seek does not exist. There is no clear, hard-and-fast rule as to what is or is not alive or human, in a reproductive, anatomical, genetic, legal, cultural or any other context. Value judgements are best made on the basis of what will allow for lives worth living.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

What about calamari? Cephalopods are at least as intelligent if not more so than some of the mammals we regularly eat (and some are even psychic!).

Laelia Komi Anomalocaris

calamari are delicious.

I eat only certain very primitive animals such as jellyfish, clams and sponge. I do not eat cephalapods for that reason.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Well I don't personally discriminate and consider all delicious animals worth eating, but I was aware that octopi and the like are remarkably intelligent. I'm not sure if the friend in question eats them, but I've never observed it. He's logical about most things, so I'd guess he doesn't eat them.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

It's "octopuses" btw

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octopi is a better word, and neither that nor octopuses gets red scrabbly underline so they're both correct according to the internet.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

octopodes

octopussy

Akina: bitch I will stab you in the face