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 Post subject: so middle east:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:31 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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egypt revolt, shit going down in libya, another one...was it lebanon that went nuts?


so saudi king goes home from medical absence early and starts throwing around money HEY DONT REVOLT I GOTS FOODS FOR U

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110223/wl_nm/us_saudi_king


Smart, sure. Will it work? are the reasons these nations revolting localized to their own countries, or is it a regional thing?


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 Post subject: Re: so middle east:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:35 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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The reasons these nations are revolting are of course unique to each country. However, starting with Tunisia (not Lebanon...Lebanon isn't in northern africa ;) ), the other countries have influenced revolution.

Basically "hey, if Egypt can overthrow their asshole dictator, why can't we??"

Same reason that the American Revolution inspired the French Revolution.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: so middle east:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:16 pm  
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French Faggot
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Azelma wrote:
Same reason that the American Revolution inspired the French Revolution.


Not. Even. Close.

On topic: the Saudi government is on stronger footing to resist a revolution, because we will literally bend over backwards to accommodate all their wishes. It doesn't matter how much popular outcry there is, the Saudis (along with Israel) are one of a very few countries that can request a blowjob from the USA and get it without reciprocity.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
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 Post subject: Re: so middle east:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:22 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Yuratuhl wrote:
Azelma wrote:
Same reason that the American Revolution inspired the French Revolution.


Not. Even. Close.


Care to clarify? The American Revolution/subsequent constitution clearly helped plant the seeds of the French Revolution.

http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/lecture11a.html

Quote:
The effects of the American Revolution, as a revolution, were imponderable but very great. It inspired the sense of a new era. It added a new content to the conception of progress. It gave a whole new dimension to ideas of liberty and equality made familiar by the Enlightenment. It got people into the habit of thinking more concretely about political questions, and made them more readily critical of their own governments and society. It dethroned England, and set up America, as a model for those seeking a better world. It brought written constitutions, declarations of rights, and constituent conventions into the realm of the possible. The apparition on the other side of the Atlantic of certain ideas already familiar in Europe made such ideas seem more truly universal, and confirmed the habit of thinking in terms of humanity at large. Whether fantastically idealized or seen in a factual way, whether as mirage or as reality, America made Europe seem unsatisfactory to many people of the middle and lower classes, and to those of the upper classes who wished them well. It made a good many Europeans feel sorry for themselves, and induced a kind of spiritual flight from the Old Regime. (p. 282)


R. R. Palmer -1959 (The Age of Democratic Revolution: The Challenge)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=14966910

Quote:
Inspired by the representative government under way in America, the French — whose assistance to American revolutionaries had created a fiscal crisis at home — rebelled against their regime. While America's founders stayed true to their constitution, however, the French weren't able to do the same.


The uprisings in Tunisia, then Egypt, clearly helped inspire the uprising now happening in Libya. If Egypt/Tunisia had failed to oust their dictators, Libya wouldn't be happening now. All of these revolutions are lead by youth unhappy with their current circumstances - inspired by the successes of others in the region. I'm not saying the reasons are the same - clearly they are different countries.

Please tell me how exactly I'm "Not even close" here?


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: so middle east:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:36 pm  
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The American Revolution was about taxes and representation. The French Revolution happened because of the system of nobility, a huge gap between the talentless yet wealthy nobles and the poor commoners, the impossible-to-cross line separating the rich commoners from the aforementioned talentless nobles even if they were in all other respects identical, the perceived excesses of a not-so-bright king and his tremendously unpopular wife, and food riots. It also happened 13 years later.

Are there some similarities? Sure. They both technically started as movements urging reform, rather than seeking to create new governments. But the American Revolution was actually a revolution. It was an organized movement by colonial peoples to rule themselves. The French Revolution was more of a civil war. There was no unified Revolutionary Army. Everyone had a different idea of what was the best way to go about running the country, and even of what should be done about the nobility everyone had a problem with in the first place.

You guys struck gold with the Articles of Confederation. Sure, they were totally ineffective and the country would have absolutely collapsed into separate independent states were it not for the Constitution, but the shift was mostly peaceful. The French had the Reign of Terror, then the generally ineffective Directory, then Napoleon, then figurehead kings, then more revolutions/civil wars. There was a republic in place for a handful of years, surrounded by monarchy, empire, and more monarchy. And shit, most of the stuff France ended up keeping policy-wise was thanks to Napoleon, a decidedly un-democratic person.

The revolutions in the Middle East are all about corruption in the government and are happening within days of each other. They actually are all about the same thing.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
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 Post subject: Re: so middle east:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:49 pm  
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Malodorous Moron
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The middle east has been fighting since humans have lived there.

Placing ourselves or our puppets there isn't likely going to change that.


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 Post subject: Re: so middle east:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:53 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Yuratuhl wrote:
The American Revolution was about taxes and representation. The French Revolution happened because of the system of nobility, a huge gap between the talentless yet wealthy nobles and the poor commoners, the impossible-to-cross line separating the rich commoners from the aforementioned talentless nobles even if they were in all other respects identical, the perceived excesses of a not-so-bright king and his tremendously unpopular wife, and food riots. It also happened 13 years later....


I think you just misunderstood me. I didn't mean to imply the reasons were the same. Clearly the French and Americans revolted for different reasons, and had very different political/economic/social situations. I'm saying that the idea of revolution, uprising, whatever you want to call it, is contagious.

Americans were like "this shit sucks, let's do something about it" - and they were successful.

This helped inspire people to think in other countries "this shit sucks, let's do something about it. And look, shit sucked for those people, they did something about it...and it worked out for them." (The French Revolution, The Mexican Revolution). The French may have had many different ideas about what the country should be, as you say....but the feeling...the "things should be different...and I bet we could make them different" is a very contagious thing.

As for the whole "13 years later" - revolutions don't usually happen overnight...especially back then when information/ideas took a lot longer to get around. Why all these revolutions are happening so fast now is because of how easy it is to organize, connect, and communicate today. If Facebook existed back then, I bet the French Revolution might have happened much sooner.

Here's the quote from that book I posted again about democracy. It is all about IDEAS and THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE. Different reasons, but I'm talking about the underlying feeling. Any time those in power are overthrown, the basic feeling of the masses is the same "we're unhappy with the way things are...we want our voices heard...we want change":

Quote:
The effects of the American Revolution, as a revolution, were imponderable but very great. It inspired the sense of a new era. It added a new content to the conception of progress. It gave a whole new dimension to ideas of liberty and equality made familiar by the Enlightenment. It got people into the habit of thinking more concretely about political questions, and made them more readily critical of their own governments and society. It dethroned England, and set up America, as a model for those seeking a better world. It brought written constitutions, declarations of rights, and constituent conventions into the realm of the possible. The apparition on the other side of the Atlantic of certain ideas already familiar in Europe made such ideas seem more truly universal, and confirmed the habit of thinking in terms of humanity at large. Whether fantastically idealized or seen in a factual way, whether as mirage or as reality, America made Europe seem unsatisfactory to many people of the middle and lower classes, and to those of the upper classes who wished them well. It made a good many Europeans feel sorry for themselves, and induced a kind of spiritual flight from the Old Regime. (p. 282)


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: so middle east:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:15 pm  
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They didn't actually care about getting their voices heard; it's just what happened when a small group of extremists tried to guide the whole thing away from monarchy because they personally hated it. The people just wanted to eat.

I don't buy that the one made the other possible. Did the way the American Revolution turned out inspire some of the leaders of the French one? It certainly did. But it didn't make the entire thing possible. It would have happened anyway. There have been rebellions and revolts since before Christ, even from people as terrible at fighting as the Jews. If you starve your commoners enough, eventually they'll storm your castle, steal all your shit, rape your wife, and kill your entire family.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh
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 Post subject: Re: so middle east:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:30 pm  
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Malodorous Moron
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Yuratuhl wrote:
The American Revolution was about taxes and representation.


Simply to expand upon your point, The Stamp Act was really what pissed us off.

Stamp Act?



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 Post subject: Re: so middle east:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:33 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Jordan is the other country you're thinking of, along with Bahrain.

I've been to Bahrain, it's one of the most beautiful countries in the world.


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 Post subject: Re: so middle east:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:15 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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bahrain was the one i was thinking of.


but i was watching Navy SEALs at the time.


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 Post subject: Re: so middle east:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:15 pm  
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http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/moammar- ... d=12987097

Quote:
Libya's embattled dictator Moammar Gadhafi gave a bizarre speech by phone today to claim the revolt was the work of Osama bin Laden, that rebellious youth had been given hallucinogens, and to complain that the Queen of England has ruled longer than him and no one is asking her to step down.


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: so middle east:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:56 pm  
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Good to see horrible dictators being brought down. I can only hope that they aren't replaced by horrible dictators.
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 Post subject: Re: so middle east:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:13 am  
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Saw this, had to...

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 Post subject: Re: so middle east:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:34 am  
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Fat Bottomed Faggot
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I'm listening to Animal Farm atm.

Napolean's remarks about "You don't want the farmer coming back do you?" after the animals question what he did, reminds me of Hosni Mubarak saying it's either him or Islamic extremism.


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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