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edit: whee.

You are correct I initially confused the Muslim Brotherhood with the Nation of Islam - but the point, so far as it concerns this meeting, stands. In fact, the "write-up" you apparently Googled doesn't even agree with you that the Muslim Brotherhood are terrorists:



ADL...CFR...Wall Street Journal...Daniel Pipes...DTL (lol)
Every article or source you linked is extremely Zionist.

Find us something moderate and mainstream and not a Zionist lobby group that substantiates your claim that these speakers have links to terrorism. Until such proof is provided, it stands that you and Callysta are just making shoddy rationalizations for hate speech.

EDIT: And stop just Googling random shit to support your bigoted opinions without actually reading either what you are linking, or reading in general, to gain a better understanding of the issues you opinionate about.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

what just because they're muslims mean they just get a pass?

that's called profiling aestu and I DONT DO IT

You have once against missed the point. You misunderstand and willfully misread things to fit your skewed world view. Your stances come from fear, and you assume the worst with no real knowledge. Arguing with you is a waste of time.


On an unrelated note "google" needs a filter. It is possibly the most pathetic argument, made more so when a person uses it as a counter in one thread, then googles a number of links to support their side in another thread. There's nothing wrong with research and if your best comeback includes google just stop posting in the thread.

Dvergar /
Quisling

How dare I google and search for sources before making judgement against people who are in a video released by an organization which has an agenda to advance. (You'll be happy to know I actually contacted Daniel Pipes asking for the source of one of his quotes. He sent me a word document which details the contents of a video from 1993, in which Wahhaj is quoted saying he wants Islam to take over America) The fact that Cally and I have done a bit of digging around before saying the protest was 'mindblowing' and 'indefensible' is less bigoted since we didn't hang the protesters because they were waving flags standing with other white people.

Aestu, you're a smart guy and I know you think your ability to read is second to none. Please, re-read this thread and quote the point where I said the Muslim Brotherhood was a terrorist organization. I didn't even bring up the MB ties to terrorism until you alleged that I said that. The most I said is the Muslim Brotherhood wanted to establish a Caliphate and they supported the formation of ICNA and MSA; two groups which have a history of booking homophobic and anti-semitic speakers. It was you who said I was trying to draw a parallel between the Muslim Brotherhood and modern-day Arab terrorists; if you re-read page three you'll see that you're, again, mistaken.

The link I posted said the Muslim Brotherhood's ties to terrorism is unclear. The Muslim Brotherhood, on one hand, will denounce terrorist attacks. On the other hand, arms of the group have provided financial and logistical support to terrorist organizations. I know that the CFR is part of some giant Zionist conspiracy because the Jews are evil and their long Jewwy fingers are pulling the strings and they always stick their their long Jewwy noses in the worlds business... so I'm not going to continue to substantiate a claim YOU made, only to have you deny it.

The rest of the information providing ties between these Imans, the Nation of Islam (a hate group which has had strings of kidnappings, shootings and beheaddings in the early 1970s), a convicted terrorist, the desire to establish a Caliphate or Islamic America (dismantle the current US democratic system) and Anti-semitic speeches (specifically, Malik railing against Israel and his own admission of support for Hamas, a US recognized terrorist group, and Hezzbolah) has been listed.

I tried really hard to go through the history of the CAIR, Muslim Brotherhood and the BBC websites... to my shock, I couldn't find any of this information anywhere!? How crazy is that? Must be some Anti-Zionist conspiracy at work. Boogie boogie boo.


I don't think I'm missing the point. Let's me explain my interpretation according to your definition, which states, "Jahiliyyah is the concept of being ignorant or willfully ignoring God's plan." Allah's plan is summed up in Shariah Law, is it not? A non-Muslim would not follow Shariah Law; for instance, I will never make a pilgrimage. Furthermore, a Muslim (someone who IS familiar with Allah's plan), that doesn't follow Shariah law, is willfully ignoring God's plan. As I've explained my reasoning, Jahiliyyah encompasses non-Muslims and Muslims that don't follow Shariah Law (AKA Luke-warm Muslims)

It's perfectly relevant. Googling random pages in support of an argument is sophomoric because facts have no meaning without understanding and context.

If one's entire repertoire of facts and reasoning in support of their position comes in the form of things they dredge up from Google, implied in that is a certain close-mindedness. It is close-minded and superficial to reflexively hit Google, seeking facts in support of one's position when one has already set their opinion in stone, rather than the other way around: striving to be generally literate and reading about things on their own, forming an opinion, then remembering the facts that caused them to have the opinion they've formed over time, and restating the supporting facts and reasoning when they are asked to defend it.

Knee-jerk Googling is entirely worthy of contempt as a debate style because it's consistent with a biased and uninformed world view.

Googling is a waste of a thread because it reduces the discussion to doing others' work for them: sifting through the material and evaluating it for facts and relevance. Much of the thread is wasted just trudging through the sewage pumped up from Google; it drastically diminishes the signal-to-noise ration.

It's like the high school kid who puts a bunch of citations on his paper to meet the criteria of a rubric, even though the citations are totally irrelevant and uninformative. Of course, unlike in a high school essay assignment, we're actually interested in facts and truth, not just citing sources to meet an arbitrary requirement. Or so I'd hope.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

All I heard there was "Nice Google," and I thought we'd all (at least silently) agreed to move beyond that.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

No. There is a difference between "These are god's laws" and "This is god's plan for your specific life". Think of a christian talking about god's calling and their attempt to stay true to god, it's like that. That's the real point in all this. The things being said are pretty much exactly the kind of things you hear in a christian church. Converting non-believers, giving oneself over to god, following his rules, electing christians, it's just that it's from a muslim and with unfamiliar words, so instead of seeing the similarity you see evil intent.



Google is a tool. Like any tool the product is creates is directly related to the ability of the person wielding it. You immediately assume those opposed to you are buffoons, and because they did not reach the same conclusion you did it is because they intentionally tried to muddy your facts (of which you rarely supply).

Dvergar /
Quisling

I guess it might be a matter of interpretation. I see Allah's plan as a plan for salvation - not as a plan for an individual, especially since individuals have free will. A minister I would often talk to explained that God gives you a start and an end, and it's up to the individual to follow the path to heaven. That path, according to Christianity, is to accept Jesus as your Lord and savior, to follow the ten commandments, etc. The path, as I understand it, doesn't mean God has imaginary footsteps which guide every aspect of our lives. Similarly, that is how I see Shariah Law - a guideline for salvation, where the believer can choose to follow that or not.

That's why I'm firm in believing non-believers and believers who don't adhere to the laws of Islam are... jahiliyyah-ists?

Getting a Zionist opinion on a Muslim group is like going to a pro-life rally and asking for a balanced opinion on abortion. Just saying.

EDIT: I'm glad the last coherent point in this thread is "this group might be sometimes associated with terrorism maybe" but if I started playing this mental hopscotch and conspiracy theorizing with people who actually blow up buildings and kill people for their beliefs (read: linking anti-abortion fundamentalists to organized christian groups), there would be a shitstorm.

EDIT2: So this USA article I found says that 55% of the people they polled think that the Constitution establishes a Christian State. Will you join me at churches with a bunch of secular Arab people chanting for people to go back to Europe, or is this just in general not a good idea?

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

Mayo - Do you wish to contest any of the information that I posted and cited or are you going to just keep your head in the sand and pretend those people are just screaming at Muslims because it's what white, racist, xenophobic Tea Partiers do? If you have information on the speakers, the protest or the events which sponsor the protest which conflicts with my own, I'd love to see it.

(PS: Watch the video of the real protest and you'll see the tone was completely different. The fact that CAIR associated the speakers at the real protest with the crazies that were screaming at the people attending the dinner is a clear sign of the intended misrepresentation.)




You're running to extremes, once again. The protest was against the speakers. The speakers do have ties to various hate groups or groups that wish to establish a Caliphate. I don't know how much more clear I can be on that. Since the ICNA and MSA have repeatedly asked Malik and Wahhaj to speak at their events, one can only assume the groups that are holding the events are supportive of their message.

That's almost as funny as using the word "Zionist" in a post telling someone to stop spewing crazy conspiracy theories. How you managed to not work in a Five Jewish Bankers punchline is beyond me.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

All that I've seen you do is desperately try to associate these people with terrorists because doing this somehow removes any need to care about them as people. Not to mention I'd be fine if any of you admitted that what was seen in the video was wrong, but all I've seen was that it was completely out of context and other bids for desperately defending these people. Hell, I'd even be fine if there was a "these guys were wrong, but the protest as a whole was good", but I don't think I've seen a single admission that the people in the videos did anything wrong.

Its really looking like as soon as you don't like was a muslim is doing, the implications come out that they're associated with terrorists in some sort of internet-fueled witchunt. Its happened (even if it was justified) to a bunch of leaders in the middle east (ex. Iran, Libya, Iraq, Palestine, etc), the guy who tried to make a mosque in new york city, and now this. Its ok though, desperately trying to link muslim groups to terrorists and saying that people who got yelled at to go home to their original countries because they saw these people (even if they're no way affiliated) is totally ok. Maybe we can start making associations to all muslims and terrorists just like we did for the Japanese back in WWII, because this whole "group Y is maybe associated to action X" thing is incredibly dangerous.


You might want to tell the people at the rally this, because I don't think a group of them got that memo.

EDIT:

You're aware that the word "zionist" was around before (and had a specific definition) before Zeitgeist was made, right?

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

Quote:

What I don't agree with is the need to bring up the fact that Muhammed married a six year old and fucked her when she was nine... that's just insulting to anyone, despite it being a historical part of the Muslim prophets past. Also, I don't think that small group toward the middle needed to verbally assult the person for holding a camera. Lastly, calling the Muslims 'terrorists' seems most disturbing of all... but, we don't know who was off camera, if the audio was from that clip of the video, etc. Were all the 'terrorist' screams directed at innocent families with their children... of was Wahhaj standing off screen talking to someone? Like I said at the start of this rant -- CAIR has an agenda.

It was done on my first post, champ.

Now, where is your admission that you were wrong for jumping to the conclusion about the protesters, without actually knowing what they were protesting. They weren't protesting Islam. They weren't protesting the dinner. They were protesting the speakers at the dinner. Let's be honest - your hatred for the Right and the Tea Party movement made you automatically assume they were simply protesting Muslims for being Muslims, right?

You haven't provided any facts or information, just your own unsubstantiated accusations and those of Zionist sites.

You haven't established that these people are a threat to mainstream society. You say they want to establish a "caliphate". How? If not by violent means, then they're just advancing their own version of unreality, just like Christian fundamentalists, and certainly you don't object to their belief in the Second Coming?

So what's the problem with these people?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.