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Lucinth · **Posted:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:14 pm

You were there for Arthas' transformation.
You were there for Illidan taking control of Outland.
You were there for Kel'Thuzad becoming a lich.

You weren't there for Deathwing. Just because he existed in the Warcraft universe before now doesn't make it mean anything.

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Laelia · **Posted:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:48 pm

Quote:

You're a contrarian idiot; you don't even think out the ridiculous positions you argue. Cata lore about Twilight's Hammer / Deathwing makes no sense. Prior to Cata, the two were fighting a bitter war, and now, with absolutely no explanation or redaction, they've been retconned to be in cahoots for some reason.

Of course there was retconning involved, Warcraft has never had an entirely coherent lore. The sudden transformation of the squidgoat history, assorted "x was merely a setback" moments, the return of Muradin when he was supposedly dead, etc., have all been retconned into the story. I'm not sure what bitter war you're referring to - my recollection is that the Twilight's Hammer have always been an apocalyptic cult, previously devoted to bringing back the Old Gods and now turning to Deathwing as he attempts to destroy Azeroth.

Lucinth wrote:

You were there for Arthas' transformation.
You were there for Illidan taking control of Outland.
You were there for Kel'Thuzad becoming a lich.

You weren't there for Deathwing. Just because he existed in the Warcraft universe before now doesn't make it mean anything.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

This is irrelevant. Deathwing has been part of the lore since Warcraft II, and the black dragonflight was one of the major antagonists at the release of the game. Maybe you don't have as much of an emotional attachment to him, but it's not like there's no lore behind this expansion.

Yuratuhl · **Posted:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:51 pm

I likewise have no idea what "bitter war" Aestu is referring to; the Twilight's Hammer was one of the clans of the Horde in WarCraft II (led by the ogre-mage Cho'gall and devoted to destruction on an even greater scale than the Horde's bloodlust) and Deathwing was one of the Horde's heroes in Beyond the Dark Portal. At no point were the groups opposed.

Aestu · **Posted:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:02 pm

Yuratuhl wrote:

I likewise have no idea what "bitter war" Aestu is referring to; the Twilight's Hammer was one of the clans of the Horde in WarCraft II (led by the ogre-mage Cho'gall and devoted to destruction on an even greater scale than the Horde's bloodlust) and Deathwing was one of the Horde's heroes in Beyond the Dark Portal. At no point were the groups opposed.

That's what Blackrock Mountain was all about - why you see orcs behind barricades fighting dwarves, why there's a fire elemental being held captive in UBRS, and why Chromaggus is Nef's singular "guest". The story was, Nef and Rag were fighting for control of the mountain, with their orc and dwarven mortal minions.

Lucinth · **Posted:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:07 pm

Laelia wrote:

This is irrelevant. Deathwing has been part of the lore since Warcraft II, and the black dragonflight was one of the major antagonists at the release of the game. Maybe you don't have as much of an emotion attachment to him, but it's not like there's no lore behind this expansion.

Fighting against characters you knew and loved to see that particular story finally finished is different than fighting Deathwing. Deathwing, who has made near if not absolutely zero appearance for the entire span of the Warcraft games(I won't say none because I don't remember any mention but I haven't played the older games in quite awhile), appears out of thin air and wants to destroy the world. The lore is done. Everyone and everything is now dead or no longer relevant. Every boss from this point is now being killed for the sake of being killed and dropping loot.

If WoW is just a game to you, it doesn't matter. For the people who have been around since the beginning, it could be or partially is the reason for it becoming so stale with Cata.

Yuratuhl · **Posted:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:12 pm

The war between the Blackrock orcs and Dark Iron dwarves has very little to do with the Twilight's Hammer. The orcs have been fighting everyone on the planet since the initial invasion, and the Blackrock clan is that group that settled in Blackrock Spire. That groups with different shadowy agendas showed up later and pretended to be in control doesn't change the fact that the initial "bitter war" was over territory between two factions that couldn't have originally cared less about the influence of things like Ragnaros or Nefarian. That they eventually became the major players in the conflict doesn't mean they had anything to do with the start of hostilities, and Ragnaros as of Molten Core had the barest of links with the Twilight's Hammer.

There's one Twilight's Hammer emissary and a handful of summoners in BRD. That hardly makes them players in the war against the Black Dragonflight; they're there because they appreciate that the Dark Irons are summoning tons of fire elementals and that makes their penises hard.

Aestu · **Posted:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:16 pm

Yuratuhl wrote:

The war between the Blackrock orcs and Dark Iron dwarves has very little to do with the Twilight's Hammer. The orcs have been fighting everyone on the planet since the initial invasion, and the Blackrock clan is that group that settled in Blackrock Spire. That groups with different shadowy agendas showed up later and pretended to be in control doesn't change the fact that the initial "bitter war" was over territory between two factions that couldn't have originally cared less about the influence of things like Ragnaros or Nefarian. That they eventually became the major players in the conflict doesn't mean they had anything to do with the start of hostilities, and Ragnaros as of Molten Core had the barest of links with the Twilight's Hammer.

There's one Twilight's Hammer emissary and a handful of summoners in BRD. That hardly makes them players in the war against the Black Dragonflight; they're there because they appreciate that the Dark Irons are summoning tons of fire elementals and that makes their penises hard.

The Twilight's Hammer was allied with the Dark Irons - this is why you see their diplomats meeting with the Dark Iron people - and are responsible for trying to bring Rag into the world. They are therefore the friends of Nefarion's enemies. Nef and Rag are the ones pulling the strings; it's established that Rend Blackhand and Emperor Thaurissian are merely pawns being controlled by the dragons and elementals.

Laelia · **Posted:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:27 pm

Lucinth wrote:

Laelia wrote:

This is irrelevant. Deathwing has been part of the lore since Warcraft II, and the black dragonflight was one of the major antagonists at the release of the game. Maybe you don't have as much of an emotion attachment to him, but it's not like there's no lore behind this expansion.

Fighting against characters you knew and loved to see that particular story finally finished is different than fighting Deathwing. Deathwing, who has made near if not absolutely zero appearance for the entire span of the Warcraft games(I won't say none because I don't remember any mention but I haven't played the older games in quite awhile), appears out of thin air and wants to destroy the world. The lore is done. Everyone and everything is now dead or no longer relevant. Every boss from this point is now being killed for the sake of being killed and dropping loot.

If WoW is just a game to you, it doesn't matter. For the people who have been around since the beginning, it could be or partially is the reason for it becoming so stale with Cata.

There are a number of storylines brought up in the RTS games or earlier in WoW that haven't been fully addressed yet, including Deathwing. Off the top of my head I can think of the corruption of the Emerald Dream, the final defeat of Sargeras (who's apparently still around in some form), and the Infinite Dragonflight/Nozdormu as unfinished storylines (and presumably future expansions).

Laelia · **Posted:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:30 pm

Aestu wrote:

Yuratuhl wrote:

The war between the Blackrock orcs and Dark Iron dwarves has very little to do with the Twilight's Hammer. The orcs have been fighting everyone on the planet since the initial invasion, and the Blackrock clan is that group that settled in Blackrock Spire. That groups with different shadowy agendas showed up later and pretended to be in control doesn't change the fact that the initial "bitter war" was over territory between two factions that couldn't have originally cared less about the influence of things like Ragnaros or Nefarian. That they eventually became the major players in the conflict doesn't mean they had anything to do with the start of hostilities, and Ragnaros as of Molten Core had the barest of links with the Twilight's Hammer.

There's one Twilight's Hammer emissary and a handful of summoners in BRD. That hardly makes them players in the war against the Black Dragonflight; they're there because they appreciate that the Dark Irons are summoning tons of fire elementals and that makes their penises hard.

The Twilight's Hammer was allied with the Dark Irons - this is why you see their diplomats meeting with the Dark Iron people - and are responsible for trying to bring Rag into the world. They are therefore the friends of Nefarion's enemies. Nef and Rag are the ones pulling the strings; it's established that Rend Blackhand and Emperor Thaurissian are merely pawns being controlled by the dragons and elementals.

The Dark Irons brought Rag into the world, not the Twilight's Hammer, and since Ragnaros was defeated in Molten Core and thus had no reason to continue fighting over Blackrock Mountain I don't see why the cessation of the war is that offensive to the lore.

Aestu · **Posted:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:39 pm

Laelia wrote:

...since Ragnaros was defeated in Molten Core and thus had no reason to continue fighting over Blackrock Mountain I don't see why the cessation of the war is that offensive to the lore.

....

This is even more a waste of my time than WoW.

Laelia · **Posted:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:44 pm

A graceful departure.

Necrachilles · **Posted:** Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:08 am

All I'm hearing is

Goku beat up some bad guys this was kinda of neato in Dragon Ball
Goku beat up some more, tougher bad guys and whoa man he just transformed and got really powerful in Dragon Ball Z
Goku beat up bad guys who appeared out of nowhere and are randomly super bad ass and everyone is transforming into even more powerful stuff and who cares anymore anyways in Dragon Ball GT

Except, WoW Chars/Stories/Fights.

Pretty sure them making raiding harder is what killed WoW, not them making it more casual friendly. Typically the "good" players are egotistical dicks and/or already in their little circles. All the fresh blood that was pouring in has stopped due to not being able to keep up or get in with the other groups thus a large part (whilst bad) of the community disappeared.

This would also account for the reason there's so many recruitment posts in trade/forums, all the other posters were trolls and/or bads and gave us something to laugh at and now they're gone and/or banned because of lolmods and "hard" game.

dek · **Posted:** Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:18 am

This thread has gone to NerdCon 3 and is quickly approaching NerdCon 2.

Usdk · **Posted:** Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:19 am

WoW USED to have coherent lore.

here come green people, kill they ass.

dek · **Posted:** Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:21 am

Usdk wrote:

WoW USED to have coherent lore.

here come green people, kill they ass.

Unlike Star Trek lore: here come green women, tap they ass

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