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 Post subject: Re: @Japan
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:22 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/japan ... eafter.htm

Has some pretty good Before/Afters.
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 Post subject: Re: @Japan
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:18 pm  
Malodorous Moron
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Jubbergun wrote:
Joklem wrote:
The reporting is sensational and absolutely and completely terrible in all cases and I haven't found any coherent facts that could describe the situation accurately.


Indeed, I have a slightly more advanced understanding of nuclear reactors than the average Joe, and a lot of the stuff I've heard people saying (I haven't actually looked at any articles) makes me want to punch them in the face.

Your Pal,
Jubber


http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/file ... 0313-4.pdf
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 Post subject: Re: @Japan
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:38 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
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http://video.l3.fbcdn.net/cfs-l3-snc6/8 ... cd6dc12abf


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 Post subject: Re: @Japan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:00 am  
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Joklem wrote:
Jubbergun wrote:
Joklem wrote:
The reporting is sensational and absolutely and completely terrible in all cases and I haven't found any coherent facts that could describe the situation accurately.


Indeed, I have a slightly more advanced understanding of nuclear reactors than the average Joe, and a lot of the stuff I've heard people saying (I haven't actually looked at any articles) makes me want to punch them in the face.

Your Pal,
Jubber


http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/file ... 0313-4.pdf


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... rialPage_h

Naval submarine reactors are already capable of using a process similar to the one proposed in the Generation III designs. Shutting down the pumps and allowing the reactors to 'self-pump' based on basic thermo-dynamic principles eliminates the noise/vibrations from the pumps that make a submarine more detectable. As this article states, the Gen-III reactors would eliminate the pump problem...but as much as confidence as I have in nuclear power, we probably shouldn't be building power stations anywhere there are active faultlines and/or the possibility of hurricanes or other natural disasters.

Your Pal,
Jubber


AKA "The Gun"
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 Post subject: Re: @Japan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:14 am  
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The thing is, almost every region of the planet has it's own kind of natural disasters. I guess you could stick it in the middle of Montana or some shit but then it is so far away from being useful why bother.


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 Post subject: Re: @Japan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:27 am  
Malodorous Moron
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Updates overnight:

http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/file ... 0314-1.pdf (note radiation at monitoring post 2 for Dai-ichi unit 1 (not that it can cause acute radiation poisoning))

http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/file ... 0314-3.pdf (another hydrogen ignition like the one in the first video, at unit 3)
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 Post subject: Re: @Japan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:39 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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So, a bro of mine who is at MIT had this to say, and I'm wondering what you smart bro's (Joklem) would say in response:

Quote:
I don't want to downplay the severity of what is happening in Japan, because it is too early to know what the final result of all of this will be. I do want to say that a month's worth of background radiation is approximately the amount tha...t one would receive from flying across the country, and is far below dangerous levels. Assumptions: 2.4 mSv annual background radiation dose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_radiation) and 2-5 mrem (0.2-0.5 mSv) dose from a cross country flight (http://www.epa.gov/radtown/cosmic.html).


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: @Japan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:45 am  
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Azelma wrote:
So, a bro of mine who is at MIT had this to say, and I'm wondering what you smart bro's (Joklem) would say in response:

Quote:
I don't want to downplay the severity of what is happening in Japan, because it is too early to know what the final result of all of this will be. I do want to say that a month's worth of background radiation is approximately the amount tha...t one would receive from flying across the country, and is far below dangerous levels. Assumptions: 2.4 mSv annual background radiation dose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_radiation) and 2-5 mrem (0.2-0.5 mSv) dose from a cross country flight (http://www.epa.gov/radtown/cosmic.html).


Yes, those are "big numbers" in the reports, but they aren't dangerous. They're actually well below annual intake limits (I think) and people are being evacuated from the surroundings anyway.

Also, the numbers are in micro sievert, uSv, not even milli sievert. And to add to that, you get a few mSv whenever you get an X-ray or CT scan or such.

They seem hard at work on stabilizing them by pumping in coolants and keeping the pressure at a certain level (the radiation probably comes from releasing some junk to release pressure -- better than the alternative choice) and worst comes to worst (IMO) they could just entomb them.

edit: they'd rather write 680 uSv than 68x10^-6 Sv. Radiation poisoning (light - nausea and etc) happens at 1 Sv absorbed over an hour or so. Much less alarming now eh?
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 Post subject: Re: @Japan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:17 pm  
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Azelma wrote:
So, a bro of mine who is at MIT had this to say, and I'm wondering what you smart bro's (Joklem) would say in response


"Pretentious" isn't the same as "smart". As with so many things, understanding is more significant than regurgitation of facts and terminology out of context.

The "low levels of radiation" were measured 100 miles off the coast by an American carrier. That means that the radiation levels are much greater closer-in. 15 patients were received in the hospitals with radiation poisoning, probably workers in the plant. Still, it's likely that radiation levels near the plant - outside the containment housing - are significantly in excess of what is healthy.

Japan is a small enough place that 100 miles is within the radius between the reactors and Tokyo itself. And there's the longer-term problem that radiation uptake is cumulative. The very fact that the plant managers are simply pumping seawater into the reactors to cool them show just how desperate they are for options.

There have been reactor incidents in the past in Japan, and with the Japanese national character what it is, they have always sought to play down the extent of the problem. There is every reason to believe they are doing the same now - the problem is likely far worse than is generally known. It's clear that the three reactors have already gone into meltdown. The question is, whether what is being detected is an actual containment breach or merely radioactive steam and seawater.

It only became clear after a few weeks just how serious a problem the Chernobyl disaster was, because the Soviets tried to cover it up, which, then as now, was a futile and unsustainable gesture. Many people (hundreds of thousands) who did not die instantly were "affected" and may well still be.

Short of a massive release of core material as happened at Chernobyl (which will not occur due to the containment dome that the Japanese reactors have), there obviously has been a significant release of radioactive material. Even after the reactor is stabilized, that mess will have to be cleaned up. Since they are using raw seawater to try to cool the reactor, and it is obvious that radioactive materials are being emitted from the plant, the surrounding area will become contaminated. Even low-level contamination is dangerous for long-term exposure, as in living within a few miles of it for the entire lifespan of tens of millions of people.

Radiation cleanup, like earthquake proofing, is one of those public-works tasks in which any feat, however great, can be accomplished - for the right price. The Japanese will probably wind up doing what they did after the atom bombs, removing the entire mass of the reactor and several meters of topsoil and contaminated buildings, then re-establishing the terrain with landfill and new buildings at a cost of many hundreds of billions of dollars.

It's important to understand what this means. We're talking about moving huge, unfathomable amounts of earth and building materials, many millions of tons of dirt, then importing millions of tons more of steel, concrete, and other materials. It's a massive undertaking, like rebuilding the Pyramids many times over. It's low-tech, but the fuel and labor costs and sheer scale are mind-numbing.

Obviously, all that will have to be paid for with loans. From whom? China and the US. The long-term legacy of this incident will be how it affects Japan's relationship with China and the US - they will have a far weaker hand to play in international relations with us holding loans against them.

Ironically, this incident may prove very good for the environment, because it will likely put a nail between the eyes of the whaling profession - Japan will no longer be in a position to subsidize it nor to make diplomatic entreaties on the behalf of whalers.

Another long-term impact this incident will have is to significantly raise interest rates, with Japan needing to hire so much money. This will cause the yen to go down in value. The real question, then, is whether this event will cause the dollar or the yuan to gain more value relative to other currencies. If the dollar wins more, that's bad, because it will perpetuate our unsustainable economic situation and make the inevitable adjustment more severe. If the yuan wins more, which is unlikely, that is a good thing, because it will make the American economy more competitive and increase the probability that our long-term economic correction will be a soft one and not end in civil strife.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: @Japan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:45 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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Quote:
"Pretentious" isn't the same as "smart". As with so many things, understanding is more significant than regurgitation of facts and terminology out of context.

The "low levels of radiation" were measured 100 miles off the coast by an American carrier. That means that the radiation levels are much greater closer-in. 15 patients were received in the hospitals with radiation poisoning, probably workers in the plant. Still, it's likely that radiation levels near the plant - outside the containment housing - are significantly in excess of what is healthy

lol k
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 Post subject: Re: @Japan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:04 pm  
Malodorous Moron
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lol Aestu speaking about pretentious.

Anyway, another update from NISA:

http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/file ... 0315-1.pdf

Those are radiation levels "around the plant". In fact, "right at and around the motherfucking gate"

edit: they're trying to contain it as best as they can, it could get worse, or it could get better. This is no Chernobyl, at least not yet. Probably too soon to tell/predict/speculate. I read some reports of rods starting to melt at 3 reactors (source "a japan official", no specifications as to which reactors), but I think that would be expected and doesn't necessarily indicate a catastrophic meltdown.

The media is full of sensationalist speculation and I'll stick to NISA's data, unless they're covering something up it doesn't look as bas as half of what you read in said media.


Last edited by Joklem on Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: @Japan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:06 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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he's pretentious about the definition of the word pretentious.

credit where its due, thats dedication.


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 Post subject: Re: @Japan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:24 pm  
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Joklem wrote:
lol Aestu speaking about pretentious.

Anyway, another update from NISA:

http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/file ... 0315-1.pdf

Those are radiation levels "around the plant". In fact, "right at and around the motherfucking gate"

edit: they're trying to contain it as best as they can, it could get worse, or it could get better. This is no Chernobyl, at least not yet. Probably too soon to tell/predict/speculate. I read some reports of rods starting to melt at 3 reactors (source "a japan official", no specifications as to which reactors), but I think that would be expected and doesn't necessarily indicate a catastrophic meltdown.

The media is full of sensationalist speculation and I'll stick to NISA's data, unless they're covering something up it doesn't look as bas as half of what you read in said media.


"Because it got written down and put on the internet, it's obviously true!"

Why should we take the people with the most incentive to lie, who have lied in the past about this very issue, at face value? Why was that carrier, and over a hundred thousand civilians, moved, if radiation levels are so trivial?

You do realize that using seawater to cool a reactor is a totally unorthodox, totally inappropriate procedure, right? Why do you think it's not generally done?

The Japanese nuclear ministry knows EXACTLY what is going on and they're choosing not to tell us. They could say, the reactor is/is not melting down, this is what we've done, this is the emissions that have been released. They're not telling us that because they don't want the world to know, and they don't want the world to know what's going on because it's bad.

This is why I see you as an unintelligent individual who tries very hard to build an identity defined by being intelligent. Your viewpoint on this issue is to unimaginatively accept numbers and statements at face value without analyzing them critically based on common sense, prior experience, and understanding of the underlying principles.

An intelligent person knows that words on a page are just that. You take those words/numbers not as unimpeachable "data", but you weigh them against what else you know to be true and the identity of the party who provided them. That is what requires intelligence - that weighing, comparison, critical analysis.

Of course, the reasons that lies are told and Japanese ministries make smokescreens is because the world is full of fools who think they're on the inside track when really they're just eating up the BS laid down for them. I'm sure if this were 1986 you'd be going on about how Gorby would never lie to us, either.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: @Japan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:25 pm  
Malodorous Moron
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Why the fuck are you bringing your bullshit here? Get the fuck out.

But to clarify: "they're trying to make it so the fucking things don't melt down"

The containment chambers are relatively intact, there's no meltdown.

There's no way to know how it's gonna go, that's what I'm saying.

Edit to further clarify: that is data as given by the engineers/operators in the field. They don't even have all of the data available to describe the situation accurately, which means that the media doesn't either. They might have an official/engineer/operator's opinion or interpretation, but they're just that.

Quote:
That is what requires intelligence - that weighing, comparison, critical analysis.


There is not enough data, nor data to analyze/weight/compare against, so the intelligent interpretation is "I don't know".

But we all know that the Aestuing of this thread will go on.


Last edited by Joklem on Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: @Japan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:38 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Joklem wrote:
Why the fuck are you bringing your bullshit here? Get the fuck out.

But to clarify: "they're trying to make it so the fucking things don't melt down"

The containment chambers are relatively intact, there's no meltdown.

There's no way to know how it's gonna go, that's what I'm saying.


Of course there's a way to know. That "way" would be to know what the nuclear ministry knows - and has chosen not to tell us. That being the case, I see no reason to entertain the most rosy scenario when there is good reason to believe other wise.

The reason I am bringing my "BS" here is to suggest you challenge your underlying assumption which is that all of NISA's claims, quantitative or qualitative, are the bona fide truth.

The containment chambers may or may not be intact. This has no bearing on whether or not there is a meltdown because the point of a containment chamber is to contain the mess from a meltdown. If radiation is being released from the plant, clearly the containment system is not working as it should. Of course, like I said, this radiation might not be from actual core material, it could just be from coolant exposed directly to the core then pumped right out - which is why raw seawater is not typically used to cool cores. If the core is very hot then the water is evaporating instantly, likely taking radioactive material with it. Again, understanding the underlying science would enable one to differentiate "core meltdown" and "containment breach", and understanding how coolant fits into the equation.

They are passing out iodide tablets. Now, this is where real science comes in, not just "I like to look at cool jpegs". Iodide is completely ineffective against radiation poisoning. It does nothing. At all. The reason iodide is distributed after nuclear accidents is because it prevents the thyroid from taking up radioactive iodine, which is a byproduct of nuclear fission and present in reactor cores. If the Japanese are distributing iodide tablets to the general population it is because they believe the containment vessel has been compromised.

Joklem wrote:
Edit to further clarify: that is data as given by the engineers/operators in the field. They don't even have all of the data available to describe the situation accurately, which means that the media doesn't either. They might have an official/engineer/operator's opinion or interpretation, but they're just that.


Of course they do. Again, this is where "real science" and not "cool jpegs" come into play. The practical application of the science of thermodynamics you like to talk so much about is to determine the temperature of an object by heat diffusion and air pressure. If a certain volume of seawater or whatever is being pumped in, and rising to a certain level of temperature and pressure, then the temperature of whatever is on the other end is knowable.

If the temperature is rising on its own, or not cooling at a steady pace, then obviously the core is undergoing uncontrolled fission (i.e., meltdown).

As for the radiation count, that's merely whatever they chose to put on the page. The Japanese nuclear authorities have lied before so I don't see a reason to believe them this time around.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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