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bwahaha please dont lock this thread

I think the real question is why you feel the need to rage in this way. Why descend to name-calling and writing off what you don't want to hear "diarrhea"?

It's cognitive dissonance, plain and simple.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

When I refer to "smart bros," it is in a joking manner - I thought this was obvious. Clearly I don't think Joklem is a crazy genius who is better/smarter than everyone else, and I'm sure he doesn't think that about himself either. This may shock you, but I'd include you in that "smart bros" category too.

I posed the question because I assumed Joklem (and other uber nerds on this board, yourself included) knew more about the particular subject than I and would therefore have an informed response. You both didn't disappoint, but the ego factor, an unfortunate issue those with great intellect can sometimes have, caused discussion to become argument and therefore destroyed what I was initially trying to do...which is learn from anyone who chose to speak up.

I confess I don't know a lot about physics, nuclear power, etc, random scientific stuff - but this doesn't mean that I think Joklem + anyone else who knows a lot about it (such as my buddy at MIT) is somehow smarter/better than I am on an absolute basis. That's absurd. Like Kanye West, I'm a motherfucking genius.

I pride myself on doing my own thinking - and part of that thinking is hearing the opinions/thoughts of people who may be more educated in a subject than myself. If you want to learn more about art, ask an artist. If you want to learn about engineering, ask an engineer.

That's how I define my intelligence anyway.

@Azelma:

Studying grad physics feels like you turned into an ape and now you have to figure out how to put two sticks together to reach a banana. (and survive/not fail). Ego shattering is what it is (and you don't see me talk much about it). Established theories are no longer solid, nothing makes sense, it's full of conjecture and abstractions and you need to find your answers yourself, because there aren't any. (what we call research)

Anyone involved in hard work reports similar. Idiots remain cock-sure.


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Then why ask his opinion?



Too often today, we write off the destructive aspect of learning. People are eager to share facts, information, ways of thinking, but not so eager to break down that which is faulty.

I would say that in attempting to discredit Joklem's assumption (and forcing you to challenge your perceptions theroef), I have done something for good, whether you realize it or not. Just as surely as your prior perceptions to the contrary, which even you may not be aware of, are a bad thing. Faulty perceptions cloud one's judgment.



Knowledge is ultimately a matter of choice.
I am not a physicist or a scientist, but I read, and more importantly, I think about what I read.

I strive to have the will and courage to find the knowable truths in this world. And of course there are many naysayers who just bring the world down to their level, a nihilistic, fatalistic haze of "assumptions" and "opinions".



I'm not shocked. I get angry when people talk about their perceptions of my own intelligence because of what I like to call "white elephant syndrome" - they see the intelligence as merely a curiosity while writing off what it produces.

It's like watching a creationist munch on GMO legumes.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Long-winded is no more “smart” than “pretentious” is, and is equally ineffective at hiding ignorance, stupidity, and/or outright foolishness.

After a fifteen minute search, the only evidence I could find on the internet relating to previous incidents at Japanese facilities was something about workers at a facility putting too much uranium together, causing a reaction that exposed them to radiation, which killed two of them. It was not an equipment/containment failure. It was, as it always seems to be when I read these things, the failure of people to follow basic directions. Three Mile Island became what it became because workers over-rode safety-features and shut off a pump…and don’t even get me started on Chernobyl.

Pumping seawater into the plant doesn’t show “desperation.” Do you think they just threw up their hands, laid down some hose and a pump and went hog wild? The infrastructure to do this was likely in place because flooding the core/containment area is a common contingency. Yes, if you get that far down the list of contingencies, it’s bad. It doesn’t show “desperation,” it shows that, unlike previous incidents, some people are actually capable of following procedures.

I would trust the readings being taken on-site more than I would readings taken way off the coast on an aircraft carrier, even if that carrier is one of our own. Distance makes a lot of difference, and there is naturally a great deal of background radiation in the environment. The tools for measuring radiation that I am familiar with do not have a directional bias…in other words you can’t point your Geiger Counter North and find out how much radiation is in that direction. Any readings taken from a vessel off the coast are not going to accurately reflect what is going on because of the distance and the omni-directional nature of most instrumentation.

You would need some context for those readings, anyway. My average exposure, despite working near an operational reactor and on a vessel carrying nuclear warheads, was far less than someone who never set foot near a submarine. Why? Background radiation, that’s why! I was shielded not only from the radioactive materials on board the boat, but also from solar activity and other environmental sources. You probably get more exposure from your television than the average submarine sailor does. I’d have to see these alleged aircraft carrier readings and compare them to what is considered standard exposure to know for sure, but what someone is terming as “significant” probably isn’t.

This isn’t going to have any impact on Japanese whaling, because the government decided earlier this year to suspend their ‘research’ program because they didn’t want their citizens getting hurt by crazy tree-hugging jackasses on the high seas. Apparently, someone in the Japanese government was so appalled by the self-righteous dumb-assery of the Whale Wars show that they quit harvesting whales just to get it the fuck off television.

Japan is also unlikely to borrow from us because we owe them assloads of money. You’re suggesting that the bank is going to come to the debtor for a loan? Geddouddatown!

I haven’t seen any evidence that Japanese officials are lying about anything. They’re already taking maximum precautions by evacuating people and handing out iodine pills. There is no effort here to ‘save face’ or obscure anything. There is no policeman telling passers-by to move along because there is nothing to see here. There are even officials suggesting that the control rods are melting! That’s a Big Fucking Deal. You’re confusing skepticism with paranoia, and ending up on the side of the fence where you’re convinced “they’re out to get you.” OoOoOoOoOoOoOoOh…I’m a ghost, fear me because The Establishment says I don’t exist, therefore I must!

You forgot to say, “I’m on a horse!”

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

This is what he says. But at the end of the day, why can't he take that level of comprehension and understand the difference between a meltdown and a containment breach, or understand how exactly iodide tablets work and what they are designed to do? Why can't he take that understanding of physics and put it into context when we talk about radiation leaks from seawater etc?

The "why" is worthwhile. If your attitude about someone is mistaken, so too is your propensity to take what they say at face value. Very often people do not even realize this, and the result is mistruth on a grand scale. Go look at the church.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I made no assumptions, only stated that there is substantial uncertainty in the situation at hand.

Non-sequitur, you can stop scavenging like a vulture now.

(edit: that I dont understand is your assumption, and an idiotic one, I tried, but I'm done with you. Waste of time)


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And I prefer the latter, considering this isn't a debate hall, its an internet board for current and ex-wow players (if people want to argue, that's fine, but derailing every thread into a massive argument is stupid).


"Comparing" options isn't "Presenting my option and shoving it so far down people's throats they don't feel like bothering anymore".


I've also told these people that if they don't like it, they can propose serious changes, but for whatever reason people like to complain a lot more than actually doing something about it. I'm just letting you know that you've come up as a problem and I'm inclined to agree.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

It is not an assumption, I highlighted the specific disconnects in your reasoning caused by said lack of understanding.



No, it isn't. This typically isn't done because it exposes the seawater to radiation. There's also the issue that all that seawater will become superheated as steam, which has to be managed.

The plants were equipped with multiple pumps designed to function independently of the plant's main systems. Most of pumps apparently failed, and others have run out of fuel.



The principle behind shielding, just like electrical resistance, is that the energy is resisted at a predictable rate over distance and through impediments.

I haven't seen any sources as to the exact readings the carrier took, merely that the readings were sufficient to encourage them to move.



Whatever escaped was sufficient to get nuclear workers sick. Since then they've evacuated the area.



I am aware of that. I don't believe the decision was made for fear of people getting hurt, it was probably a graceful exit from a politically untenable position.



That's not how it works. THe federal debt is merely the debt held by the federal government, not all American institutions etc.

Nations sell bonds to banks of any given nation. Even the Chinese themselves are massive debtors. EU, US, Japanese and Chinese banks all hold bonds against each others' home countries. Merely because the US govt owes a bunch of bond-holders money doesn't mean that US banks can't extend other governments loans.



Full disclosure is not occurring, therefore there is a reason why.

Eliminate the impossible (that there is no leak, that the cooling systems are working fine, that the cores are cold), and whatever remains...

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I can't force others to believe what I believe to be true. I can't subject people to duress.
If people feel oppressed by the "weight" of others' opinions, blame that on the opinion and what supports it.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

You argue semantics as always, in a belligerent manner (yes, fuel rods/rods/fuel cells melting a bit/kinda/sorta inside a containment vessel/chamber/thing can be said is a meltdown- a contained meltdown, etc etc etc etc)

The radiation spread you mentioned comes from a map that was debunked as a complete fraud.

And as often done, grand conspiracy is unveiled, but nothing scientific or critically thought, only paranoid.

(I really have a hard time ignoring misinforming morons.)


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The definition of a meltdown is the core, what makes up the core, melting down.
The purpose of a containment system is to contain the meltdown.

You are the one bringing semantics into this, "a bit/kinda/sorta", "contained meltdown" etc.



What radiation spread. what map, what fraud?
Could you explain please?



What, it's a conspiracy theory to allege that Japanese companies and their government don't want to admit how serious the problem is, just as they haven't in the past, for fear it would make them look bad?

Again, if this was 1986 and I said Gorbachev was lying to us, would you say the same thing, it's a conspiracy theory to not accept reassurances at face value?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

ITS A CONSPIRACY NOTHING WRONG THERE

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

If you want to argue, fine, but I'm telling you, this is procedure. When you have the benefit of experience and want to tell me "no," you can do that, but that's not the case here. What do you think they have planned in the event of a total failure of all pumps, which you point out has happened? Do you think they just say, "oh, that could never happen, and if it does, well, fuck it, we'll come up with something?" This shit is SRS BZNS, and they have back-up plans for their back-up plans coming out of their ass like Batman came up with it. They don't care that the water is being exposed to radiation, because they don't want to release it, they want it in the core. As multiple news outlets have reported, they are managing the pressure of that water turning to steam through controlled venting.

And what is this "have run out of fuel" shit? They got diesel pumps in that bitch? LOL



Shielding has nothing to do with distance. Distance is another part of the exposure equation (time/distance/shielding). Your confusion/intermingling of terminology points to how little you really understand about this. You're taking the most sensational stories you can find and blowing them out of proportion.

I have to see this report about the carrier, I'm betting it's some high quality journalism...not.



The site has probably been remotely handled since this started, and the workers that were exposed and became ill were probably the last ones out. Their exposure would have been greater because they were exposed longer (time) and were much closer to the source (distance). You can't compare that to the general populace around the plant. When those people (who were evacuated, if I recall) start showing symptoms, then the sky can start falling.



You make the assumption that this was some sort of "graceful exit" based on what? They said they were stopping because they didn't want people getting hurt because there were idiots out there doing stupid shit, and the stupid shit would stop if they didn't got whaling. That's more than plausible, it's highly believable. To think that the Japanese are just stopping for political considerations when they've been "researching" for years despite the international shit-storm it brought on (especially in their relations with Australia), is not at all rational. It's not relevant to the conversation at hand, and I only pointed it out because it was just something else that points to how out-of-touch and off-base you are on all of this.



Again, you're clearly not in touch with reality here. To suggest that because of some sort of layered money-shifting scheme we're not hugely in debt to both Japan and China is redonkulous. We don't have the money to lend, anyway. Helloooooooooooooooooooooooooo DEBT CEILING!!!!



Maybe they're too busy putting out the melting reactor to tell you what their favorite breakfast cereal is right now. What you are making it out to be is not what it is. Start taking your clozapine again and take off the tin-foil hat.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste